4 ms·

Sodium ion batteries are less dense than lithium have a third of the range, I'm live in argentine and see the destruction of open mining for rare metals for cen

by imachine1980_ 4y ago

Sodium ion batteries are less dense than lithium have a third of the range, I'm live in argentine and see the destruction of open mining for rare metals for cents, make me wish this happens, but for now dense electric cars of not low range will probably use lithium and smartphones and notebook probably will continue to use lithium for long time, maybe be replaced by graphen but in the long game.

DLwdTxdU6smHQA 4y ago
> Sodium ion batteries are less dense than lithium have a third of the range Got a source for the "one third" part? According to [1] and [2] lithium ion is up to 265 Wh/kg and sodium ion has 160 Wh/kg. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery [2] https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/30/catl-reveals-sodium-ion-battery-with-160-wh-kg-energy-density/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/30/catl-reveals-sodium-ion... edited for clarity
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > lithium ion is up to 265 Wh/kg and sodium ion has 160 Wh/kg This is what less dense means.
  - DLwdTxdU6smHQA 4y ago
    sure. but it seems one third of the range seems too pessimistic according to those numbers.
    - AstralStorm 4y ago
      Sodium is about half the range with the older unimproved designs (new experimental ones are closer to parity with li-ion), it's better than the density number suggests because it's lower internal resistance - less steep discharge curve than li-ion.
- malandrew 4y ago
  What is the energy density by volume? Which is more important for cars? Weight or volume? I would imagine that volume ultimately controls how much you can fit and that weight just negatively affects range of you have too much.
- AtlasBarfed 4y ago
  And keep in mind the Nickel-Cobalt Lithium ion chemistries are responsible for the "battery fire" Tesla stories. So the Nickel-Cobalt batteries require a lot of cooling and safety systems. So this reduces the PACK level density to 60-70% from the lofty cell densities. So 240 wh/kg nickel cobalt chems drop to 160-180 at pack level. LFP and Sodium Ion do not have such issues. They are inherently safer, so the Pack densities are potentially 90-95% of cell density with good design. And to emphasize, CATL is putting into PRODUCTION in 2023 160 wh/kg sodium ion. The other trick is to mix lithium and sodium ion cells in the same pack. So you do half at 160 wh/kg sodium, and half at 210 wh/kg LFP (LFP is hitting that in 2023 as well), then you get 185 wh/kg effectively. IMO this Sodium Ion announcement marks when/where the barrier to electrifying 80-90% of consumer transportation AND allow India and China to get their own cars. It should just be a factory scaling issue now. IMO this means the BEV drivetrain will be fundamentally cheaper than the ICE drivetrain by 30% in possibly 2-3 years. ICE cars will simply not be price competitive. The BEV will accelerate better, smoother, more reliable, be cheaper in maintenance, more torque/towing ability, AND it will be cheaper when you buy a new car. That's for a 300 mile fast-charge electric car, with roadmaps to 400 mile with 200 wh/kg sodium ion. Again, if sodium sulfur hits 2x to that (the research papers say 3-4x) in 5-10 years, that means the number of cells and cost to make the car and vehicle weight all drop that much more. You'll have 500-600 mile range cars that possibly cost half of what an ICE drivetrain would.
powerbroker 4y ago
If I'm not mistaken, aren't the Argentine mines brine-based? These aren't your typical 'pit' mines. Furthermore, isn't the location of these mines in the arid high plateau near the Andes?
zackmorris 4y ago
Looks like lithium ion battery density has tripled since 2010 from about 100 Wh/kg to 300 Wh/kg: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/bloombergnef-lithium-ion-battery-cell-densities-have-almost-tripled-since-2010/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/bloombergnef-lithium-io... 160 Wh/kg for sodium ion would be higher than the ~105 Wh/kg LMO cathode and about in line with LCO, LMO/LNO and NMC cathodes up through 2012. I think LMO is lithium manganese oxide, which might be the same type of battery as in my 2013 Nissan Leaf. Mine's 24 kWh, but they're up to 62 kWh now: https://www.batterydesign.net/nissan-leaf/ https://www.batterydesign.net/nissan-leaf/ They use AESC cells, which are 80% nickel with a Ni-Mn-Co mix: https://insideevs.com/news/348513/envision-aesc-ncm-811-batteries/ https://insideevs.com/news/348513/envision-aesc-ncm-811-batt... Perhaps better cathodes could double sodium ion battery density over the next decade?
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2022/10/catl-will-mass-produce-sodium-ion-batteries-in-2023.html https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2022/10/catl-will-mass-produce... In mass production this year in China will be 160 wh/kg Sodium Ion and the company claims it can be 90-95% density cell-to-pack because sodium ion is like LFP: doesn't require as much safety stuff as the nickel-cobalt chemistries (which reduces pack density to only 60-70% of the cell density). That's (based on current reputed pack densities of Tesla Model 3 SRs) good enough for the 300 mile consumer BEV. As in, the city car for a huge percentage of the world population. I believe the roadmap is to get sodium ion to 200 wh/kg in a couple years, with good CTP yield means 400 mile cars like Model S. NO LITHIUM. NO NICKEL. NO COBALT. Sodium Sulfur will probably happen in another 10 years based on papers. That may offer 400-500 wh/kg IIRC.

DLwdTxdU6smHQA 4y ago

> Sodium ion batteries are less dense than lithium have a third of the range Got a source for the "one third" part? According to [1] and [2] lithium ion is up to 265 Wh/kg and sodium ion has 160 Wh/kg. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery [2] https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/30/catl-reveals-sodium-ion-battery-with-160-wh-kg-energy-density/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/30/catl-reveals-sodium-ion... edited for clarity

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> lithium ion is up to 265 Wh/kg and sodium ion has 160 Wh/kg This is what less dense means.
- DLwdTxdU6smHQA 4y ago
  sure. but it seems one third of the range seems too pessimistic according to those numbers.
  - AstralStorm 4y ago
    Sodium is about half the range with the older unimproved designs (new experimental ones are closer to parity with li-ion), it's better than the density number suggests because it's lower internal resistance - less steep discharge curve than li-ion.
malandrew 4y ago
What is the energy density by volume? Which is more important for cars? Weight or volume? I would imagine that volume ultimately controls how much you can fit and that weight just negatively affects range of you have too much.
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
And keep in mind the Nickel-Cobalt Lithium ion chemistries are responsible for the "battery fire" Tesla stories. So the Nickel-Cobalt batteries require a lot of cooling and safety systems. So this reduces the PACK level density to 60-70% from the lofty cell densities. So 240 wh/kg nickel cobalt chems drop to 160-180 at pack level. LFP and Sodium Ion do not have such issues. They are inherently safer, so the Pack densities are potentially 90-95% of cell density with good design. And to emphasize, CATL is putting into PRODUCTION in 2023 160 wh/kg sodium ion. The other trick is to mix lithium and sodium ion cells in the same pack. So you do half at 160 wh/kg sodium, and half at 210 wh/kg LFP (LFP is hitting that in 2023 as well), then you get 185 wh/kg effectively. IMO this Sodium Ion announcement marks when/where the barrier to electrifying 80-90% of consumer transportation AND allow India and China to get their own cars. It should just be a factory scaling issue now. IMO this means the BEV drivetrain will be fundamentally cheaper than the ICE drivetrain by 30% in possibly 2-3 years. ICE cars will simply not be price competitive. The BEV will accelerate better, smoother, more reliable, be cheaper in maintenance, more torque/towing ability, AND it will be cheaper when you buy a new car. That's for a 300 mile fast-charge electric car, with roadmaps to 400 mile with 200 wh/kg sodium ion. Again, if sodium sulfur hits 2x to that (the research papers say 3-4x) in 5-10 years, that means the number of cells and cost to make the car and vehicle weight all drop that much more. You'll have 500-600 mile range cars that possibly cost half of what an ICE drivetrain would.

powerbroker 4y ago

If I'm not mistaken, aren't the Argentine mines brine-based? These aren't your typical 'pit' mines. Furthermore, isn't the location of these mines in the arid high plateau near the Andes?

zackmorris 4y ago

Looks like lithium ion battery density has tripled since 2010 from about 100 Wh/kg to 300 Wh/kg: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/bloombergnef-lithium-ion-battery-cell-densities-have-almost-tripled-since-2010/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/bloombergnef-lithium-io... 160 Wh/kg for sodium ion would be higher than the ~105 Wh/kg LMO cathode and about in line with LCO, LMO/LNO and NMC cathodes up through 2012. I think LMO is lithium manganese oxide, which might be the same type of battery as in my 2013 Nissan Leaf. Mine's 24 kWh, but they're up to 62 kWh now: https://www.batterydesign.net/nissan-leaf/ https://www.batterydesign.net/nissan-leaf/ They use AESC cells, which are 80% nickel with a Ni-Mn-Co mix: https://insideevs.com/news/348513/envision-aesc-ncm-811-batteries/ https://insideevs.com/news/348513/envision-aesc-ncm-811-batt... Perhaps better cathodes could double sodium ion battery density over the next decade?

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2022/10/catl-will-mass-produce-sodium-ion-batteries-in-2023.html https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2022/10/catl-will-mass-produce... In mass production this year in China will be 160 wh/kg Sodium Ion and the company claims it can be 90-95% density cell-to-pack because sodium ion is like LFP: doesn't require as much safety stuff as the nickel-cobalt chemistries (which reduces pack density to only 60-70% of the cell density). That's (based on current reputed pack densities of Tesla Model 3 SRs) good enough for the 300 mile consumer BEV. As in, the city car for a huge percentage of the world population. I believe the roadmap is to get sodium ion to 200 wh/kg in a couple years, with good CTP yield means 400 mile cars like Model S. NO LITHIUM. NO NICKEL. NO COBALT. Sodium Sulfur will probably happen in another 10 years based on papers. That may offer 400-500 wh/kg IIRC.