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> There is an interview with Siddharth Kara that suggests all lithium batteries contain cobalt and thusly depend on child slave labor That is demonstrably not

> There is an interview with Siddharth Kara that suggests all lithium batteries contain cobalt and thusly depend on child slave labor That is demonstrably not true. AFAIK the majority of EVs use LFP batteries that have no cobalt. The current RWD Model 3 in the US also uses LFP. That's the direction most EVs will probably head over the next few years.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
It's not just LFP batteries that don't use cobalt. Tesla's medium density batteries use a "high nickel" cathode rather than a nickel-manganese-cobalt cathode.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I'd like to learn more about that but I am coming up blank. Everything I've found suggests even the new Tesla 4680 continues to rely on some amount of cobalt.
Manuel_D 4y ago
Lithium iron phosphate are not widely used in EVs. They gave poorer energy density, so lithium ion is preferred. I think electric golf carts use LiFePo batteries, to keep costs low and because range is less of an issue.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  The vast majority of EVs in China use LFP, and China has most of the EVs in the world. And even in the US, by volume I wouldn't be surprised if the RWD Model 3 is a reasonable fraction of total EV sales.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Most EV's in China use LiFePO4 batteries, and China is the largest EV market.
- tuatoru 4y ago
  LFP batteries have not been widely used outside China till now because CATL[1] owns the important patents. The patents expire this year. The energy density discrepancy is not as bad at a system (whole vehicle) level as it appears at cell level, for various reasons. And there are lots of use cases where LFP has more than enough energy, provided the price is right. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATL
- SigmundA 4y ago
  The energy density is partially offset by the higher cycle life of LFP even while charging to 100% SOC. For instance Tesla recommends an 80% charge for daily unless you know you are going to go a long trip, while on their LFP version they recommend a 100% daily charge to keep cell balance as the LFP pack will have a much longer life than a NCM pack at 80%. https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_jo/GUID-7FE78D73-0A17-47C4-B21B-54F641FFAEF4.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_jo/GUID-7FE78D7... LFP are ideal for shorter range commuter/daily driver cars and LFP tech seems to be closing the gap with cobalt energy density.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

It's not just LFP batteries that don't use cobalt. Tesla's medium density batteries use a "high nickel" cathode rather than a nickel-manganese-cobalt cathode.

rootusrootus 4y ago
I'd like to learn more about that but I am coming up blank. Everything I've found suggests even the new Tesla 4680 continues to rely on some amount of cobalt.

Manuel_D 4y ago

Lithium iron phosphate are not widely used in EVs. They gave poorer energy density, so lithium ion is preferred. I think electric golf carts use LiFePo batteries, to keep costs low and because range is less of an issue.

rootusrootus 4y ago
The vast majority of EVs in China use LFP, and China has most of the EVs in the world. And even in the US, by volume I wouldn't be surprised if the RWD Model 3 is a reasonable fraction of total EV sales.
bryanlarsen 4y ago
Most EV's in China use LiFePO4 batteries, and China is the largest EV market.
tuatoru 4y ago
LFP batteries have not been widely used outside China till now because CATL[1] owns the important patents. The patents expire this year. The energy density discrepancy is not as bad at a system (whole vehicle) level as it appears at cell level, for various reasons. And there are lots of use cases where LFP has more than enough energy, provided the price is right. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATL
SigmundA 4y ago
The energy density is partially offset by the higher cycle life of LFP even while charging to 100% SOC. For instance Tesla recommends an 80% charge for daily unless you know you are going to go a long trip, while on their LFP version they recommend a 100% daily charge to keep cell balance as the LFP pack will have a much longer life than a NCM pack at 80%. https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_jo/GUID-7FE78D73-0A17-47C4-B21B-54F641FFAEF4.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_jo/GUID-7FE78D7... LFP are ideal for shorter range commuter/daily driver cars and LFP tech seems to be closing the gap with cobalt energy density.