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Is Lithium the only barrier to EV's? Are there any global supply chain logistical issues that may arise should ongoing conflicts escalate? Do the same supply

Is Lithium the only barrier to EV's? Are there any global supply chain logistical issues that may arise should ongoing conflicts escalate? Do the same supply chain issues affect ICE and EV's equally? I honestly do not know but I see this get brought up when people discuss EV's more so than Lithium. Could the existing coal mining companies transition or relocate to locations rich in Lithium, possibly offering their employees relocation bonuses? Some of the coal mining companies are in the process of shutting down and it seems like money could be saved by repurposing some of the equipment and utilizing some of the coal mining team experience. Could states offer financial incentives to relocate and switch to mining Lithium? Are we still reliant on Cobalt as part of the Lithium battery? There is an interview with Siddharth Kara that suggests all lithium batteries contain cobalt and thusly depend on child slave labor. [1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIWvk3gJ_7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIWvk3gJ_7E [video][14 mins]

theshrike79 4y ago
Yes, the Lithium and Cobalt sources we have currently running wouldn't be enough to turn every single vehicle in the world to an EV. But we don't need to do that. New mines for both Lithium and Cobalt are being started, new battery chemistries are being investigated (including ones based on _wood_ [0]), there is also the option of ethanol/biogas/biodiesel for existing ICEs and maybe even green hydrogen if someone manages to optimise the process about 5x to make it cost-effective. And the main thing people tend to forget: EV batteries are highly recyclable. We're up to 90% now, closing up on 95%. The biggest thing keeping it from being a huge industry is lack of batteries to recycle. Like the article says, reuse of old EV batteries is a hugely valid option, more so than recycling. A 50kWh battery with 50% capacity loss is till a 25kWh battery, which will run a full American McMansion for a few days easily. Compare that to ICEs where the fuel is literally burned up in smoke and is exactly 0% recyclable. [0] https://www.storaenso.com/en/newsroom/regulatory-and-investor-releases/2022/7/stora-enso-and-northvolt-partner-to-develop-wood-based-batteries https://www.storaenso.com/en/newsroom/regulatory-and-investo...
rapsey 4y ago
Lithium iron phosphate (lifepo4) do not contain cobalt
rootusrootus 4y ago
> There is an interview with Siddharth Kara that suggests all lithium batteries contain cobalt and thusly depend on child slave labor That is demonstrably not true. AFAIK the majority of EVs use LFP batteries that have no cobalt. The current RWD Model 3 in the US also uses LFP. That's the direction most EVs will probably head over the next few years.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  It's not just LFP batteries that don't use cobalt. Tesla's medium density batteries use a "high nickel" cathode rather than a nickel-manganese-cobalt cathode.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I'd like to learn more about that but I am coming up blank. Everything I've found suggests even the new Tesla 4680 continues to rely on some amount of cobalt.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  Lithium iron phosphate are not widely used in EVs. They gave poorer energy density, so lithium ion is preferred. I think electric golf carts use LiFePo batteries, to keep costs low and because range is less of an issue.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    The vast majority of EVs in China use LFP, and China has most of the EVs in the world. And even in the US, by volume I wouldn't be surprised if the RWD Model 3 is a reasonable fraction of total EV sales.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Most EV's in China use LiFePO4 batteries, and China is the largest EV market.
  - tuatoru 4y ago
    LFP batteries have not been widely used outside China till now because CATL[1] owns the important patents. The patents expire this year. The energy density discrepancy is not as bad at a system (whole vehicle) level as it appears at cell level, for various reasons. And there are lots of use cases where LFP has more than enough energy, provided the price is right. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATL
bryanlarsen 4y ago
Lithium is the only major mineral in an EV that does not have a significant use elsewhere. Steel, aluminum, manganese, nickel, iron, phosphate, cobalt, rare earths, et cetera have significant industrial uses outside of EV's. So while EV's can put a lot of pressure on those supply chains, the effect is on a different scale. Traditionally Lithium isn't mined, it's concentrated out of a brine. Some miners are setting up hard-rock Lithium mines, but those are on a vastly different scale than a coal mine, so there would likely be very little equipment overlap. A significant number of batteries still use cobalt, although the percentage of batteries that are cobalt-free is increasing.

theshrike79 4y ago

Yes, the Lithium and Cobalt sources we have currently running wouldn't be enough to turn every single vehicle in the world to an EV. But we don't need to do that. New mines for both Lithium and Cobalt are being started, new battery chemistries are being investigated (including ones based on _wood_ [0]), there is also the option of ethanol/biogas/biodiesel for existing ICEs and maybe even green hydrogen if someone manages to optimise the process about 5x to make it cost-effective. And the main thing people tend to forget: EV batteries are highly recyclable. We're up to 90% now, closing up on 95%. The biggest thing keeping it from being a huge industry is lack of batteries to recycle. Like the article says, reuse of old EV batteries is a hugely valid option, more so than recycling. A 50kWh battery with 50% capacity loss is till a 25kWh battery, which will run a full American McMansion for a few days easily. Compare that to ICEs where the fuel is literally burned up in smoke and is exactly 0% recyclable. [0] https://www.storaenso.com/en/newsroom/regulatory-and-investor-releases/2022/7/stora-enso-and-northvolt-partner-to-develop-wood-based-batteries https://www.storaenso.com/en/newsroom/regulatory-and-investo...

rapsey 4y ago

Lithium iron phosphate (lifepo4) do not contain cobalt

rootusrootus 4y ago

> There is an interview with Siddharth Kara that suggests all lithium batteries contain cobalt and thusly depend on child slave labor That is demonstrably not true. AFAIK the majority of EVs use LFP batteries that have no cobalt. The current RWD Model 3 in the US also uses LFP. That's the direction most EVs will probably head over the next few years.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
It's not just LFP batteries that don't use cobalt. Tesla's medium density batteries use a "high nickel" cathode rather than a nickel-manganese-cobalt cathode.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I'd like to learn more about that but I am coming up blank. Everything I've found suggests even the new Tesla 4680 continues to rely on some amount of cobalt.
Manuel_D 4y ago
Lithium iron phosphate are not widely used in EVs. They gave poorer energy density, so lithium ion is preferred. I think electric golf carts use LiFePo batteries, to keep costs low and because range is less of an issue.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  The vast majority of EVs in China use LFP, and China has most of the EVs in the world. And even in the US, by volume I wouldn't be surprised if the RWD Model 3 is a reasonable fraction of total EV sales.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Most EV's in China use LiFePO4 batteries, and China is the largest EV market.
- tuatoru 4y ago
  LFP batteries have not been widely used outside China till now because CATL[1] owns the important patents. The patents expire this year. The energy density discrepancy is not as bad at a system (whole vehicle) level as it appears at cell level, for various reasons. And there are lots of use cases where LFP has more than enough energy, provided the price is right. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATL

bryanlarsen 4y ago

Lithium is the only major mineral in an EV that does not have a significant use elsewhere. Steel, aluminum, manganese, nickel, iron, phosphate, cobalt, rare earths, et cetera have significant industrial uses outside of EV's. So while EV's can put a lot of pressure on those supply chains, the effect is on a different scale. Traditionally Lithium isn't mined, it's concentrated out of a brine. Some miners are setting up hard-rock Lithium mines, but those are on a vastly different scale than a coal mine, so there would likely be very little equipment overlap. A significant number of batteries still use cobalt, although the percentage of batteries that are cobalt-free is increasing.