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I would absolutely hire somebody who sued Twitter for failing to pay what was owed. In a heartbeat. I like working with people with character; you can trust the

I would absolutely hire somebody who sued Twitter for failing to pay what was owed. In a heartbeat. I like working with people with character; you can trust them to let you know when something isn't right. Similarly, I'd look very carefully at anybody who stayed at Twitter well into the Musk era. As I did people who were at Uber during the Travis era. Sometimes decent people have good reasons for working for bad execs. (E.g., I hear a lot of the SpaceX people see putting up with Musk as a necessary evil for getting to work on something they care so much about.) But sometimes they are clue-deficient or lack a moral core, and those people require too much close supervision for my tastes.

klabb3 4y ago
> Sometimes decent people have good reasons for working for bad execs. Yep. Don’t forget immigration, that can be a big reason to stay. There was this famous pic of Elon with the some of the remaining Twitter staff and let’s just say they looked quite international. Obviously SV is multicultural and you shouldn’t assume individual traits from appearance, but, for a group it’s somewhat reasonable to assume a fair amount of H1B hostages with a huge incentive to stay, especially in the current economic climate. Speaking as a former H1B holder.
- wpietri 4y ago
  Oh yeah, totally. I recall one absolutely terrible place that was well-stocked with H1B holders because they would grimly put up with all the executive nonsense. They were not a talkative bunch, but I got the impression a number of them were just saving every dollar possible for a planned return home. Which I totally respected, but I still felt terrible for them.
- amachefe 4y ago
  Saying people "looked quite international" is prejudicial You don't get a pass because Elon and Twitter happens to be involved. It is very unlikely if upto has of Twitter 2000+ employees are "H1B hostages", but I doubt that will serve your purpose
  - klabb3 4y ago
    Meh. I’ve worked in SF in another big tech corp. I know the demographics. I know many of those that are on H1Bs and as I said I’ve been myself. I also knew people at Twitter. It was less diverse than the big ones then, at least that was the image. The stereotype was more Equinox Soul Cycle white chic career women who live in the Marina, or something like that. > I doubt that will serve your purpose What purpose? I’m not coming from a culture war perspective in the slightest, but purely from his micro-/mismanagement of the company, and his treatment of employees, which I have learnt directly from his own words.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    > is prejudicial It is not. He made no negative assumptions about the people in question and did no harm to them.
  - david38 4y ago
    What crap. You are implying “international” == “bad”. Like poor workers, likely to commit crimes, poor communicators, etc. The opposite is true. The “internationals” in that photo have a strong reputation for interest and hard work in engineering and the sciences.
klodolph 4y ago
> Similarly, I'd look very carefully at anybody who stayed at Twitter well into the Musk era. Maybe the people without H1Bs. The H1Bs are in a tough spot.
ars 4y ago
Working for Musk means you don't have a moral core?
- wpietri 4y ago
  I think that is one possible reason to work for Musk. An easy way for you to check here is looking at the number of people who have quit Twitter in recent months for ethical reasons. If the ethical people leave, what do you imagine remains behind?
  - vagrantJin 4y ago
    Please do not judge people with such easy contempt. Quite likely the people who have quit are upper middle class folks who have a huge safety net that allows them to throw tantrums with little repercussion. They also likely dont have to support a family and I don't mean 1or 2 kids. TLDR; being ethical is great if you can afford it.
    - wpietri 4y ago
      I agree that ethics are a luxury good, but for developers they're a pretty easily affordable one. As I said, people can have good reasons for working for bad people. But many don't. Back when email spam was relatively new, sometimes I would track down a spammer, call them up, and ask them what they were doing. Some were apologetic! They didn't know why it was bad, or had gotten talked into something by a sleazy sales guy. But I still remember one conversation with a guy who clearly felt bad about it but wasn't going to stop because he had a family to feed. What I hope he eventually figured out is that everybody has a family to feed, but that doesn't justify harming other people and their families. I get that in the short term people end up stuck in things where the didn't realize what was going on. for example, that's how I ended up working in financial trading for a while. But I got out. It may take them a while, but others can too. And for those that can't figure it out or don't care? I don't want to work with them until they do. They get to make their choices, but I get to make mine.
      - 4y ago
UncleEntity 4y ago
> Similarly, I'd look very carefully at anybody… Not everyone can afford to piss off a job because it doesn’t perfectly align with their moral compass. All this talk about recession, unaffordable housing, tech layoffs and whatever else gets page views might make someone just a little hesitant to up and quit a job because the company is run by a raving lunatic. Must be nice though to be in a position where you can create a class of undesirable peoples.
- wpietri 4y ago
  Sure. And you can "not anybody can" for all sorts of factors that are relevant in hiring. Not everybody can work on interesting projects. Not everybody is given a chance to lead. Not everybody is working at places where they get to use modern tooling. Etc., etc. You seem to be acting as if I'm going to just throw out any resume with Twitter on it. What I said was I'd look very carefully at someone, which is what I'd do with literally dozens of causes of concern. And "perfectly align" is pretty hyperbolic. If you're exaggerating like this for hit-dogs-holler reasons, you might think about that.
  - UncleEntity 4y ago
    > You seem to be acting as if I'm going to just throw out any resume with Twitter on it. You did imply that is the case. The only people who stayed post-musk have compromised morals or they would have left with the rest of the right thinkers. Maybe not what you meant but what I read.
    - wpietri 4y ago
      You inferred that, but it is neither what I meant nor what I said.
- roguecoder 4y ago
  I'm sorry actions have consequences. That must be disappointing. I once saw a resume that had Enron, Wells Fargo, Uber and a crypto scam on it. That thing went straight in the bin. I'd have way more respect for someone who spent a couple of years bagging groceries than someone who embraced an abusive, toxic culture out of greed.

klabb3 4y ago

> Sometimes decent people have good reasons for working for bad execs. Yep. Don’t forget immigration, that can be a big reason to stay. There was this famous pic of Elon with the some of the remaining Twitter staff and let’s just say they looked quite international. Obviously SV is multicultural and you shouldn’t assume individual traits from appearance, but, for a group it’s somewhat reasonable to assume a fair amount of H1B hostages with a huge incentive to stay, especially in the current economic climate. Speaking as a former H1B holder.

wpietri 4y ago
Oh yeah, totally. I recall one absolutely terrible place that was well-stocked with H1B holders because they would grimly put up with all the executive nonsense. They were not a talkative bunch, but I got the impression a number of them were just saving every dollar possible for a planned return home. Which I totally respected, but I still felt terrible for them.
amachefe 4y ago
Saying people "looked quite international" is prejudicial You don't get a pass because Elon and Twitter happens to be involved. It is very unlikely if upto has of Twitter 2000+ employees are "H1B hostages", but I doubt that will serve your purpose
- klabb3 4y ago
  Meh. I’ve worked in SF in another big tech corp. I know the demographics. I know many of those that are on H1Bs and as I said I’ve been myself. I also knew people at Twitter. It was less diverse than the big ones then, at least that was the image. The stereotype was more Equinox Soul Cycle white chic career women who live in the Marina, or something like that. > I doubt that will serve your purpose What purpose? I’m not coming from a culture war perspective in the slightest, but purely from his micro-/mismanagement of the company, and his treatment of employees, which I have learnt directly from his own words.
- wpietri 4y ago
  > is prejudicial It is not. He made no negative assumptions about the people in question and did no harm to them.
- david38 4y ago
  What crap. You are implying “international” == “bad”. Like poor workers, likely to commit crimes, poor communicators, etc. The opposite is true. The “internationals” in that photo have a strong reputation for interest and hard work in engineering and the sciences.

klodolph 4y ago

> Similarly, I'd look very carefully at anybody who stayed at Twitter well into the Musk era. Maybe the people without H1Bs. The H1Bs are in a tough spot.

ars 4y ago

Working for Musk means you don't have a moral core?

wpietri 4y ago
I think that is one possible reason to work for Musk. An easy way for you to check here is looking at the number of people who have quit Twitter in recent months for ethical reasons. If the ethical people leave, what do you imagine remains behind?
- vagrantJin 4y ago
  Please do not judge people with such easy contempt. Quite likely the people who have quit are upper middle class folks who have a huge safety net that allows them to throw tantrums with little repercussion. They also likely dont have to support a family and I don't mean 1or 2 kids. TLDR; being ethical is great if you can afford it.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    I agree that ethics are a luxury good, but for developers they're a pretty easily affordable one. As I said, people can have good reasons for working for bad people. But many don't. Back when email spam was relatively new, sometimes I would track down a spammer, call them up, and ask them what they were doing. Some were apologetic! They didn't know why it was bad, or had gotten talked into something by a sleazy sales guy. But I still remember one conversation with a guy who clearly felt bad about it but wasn't going to stop because he had a family to feed. What I hope he eventually figured out is that everybody has a family to feed, but that doesn't justify harming other people and their families. I get that in the short term people end up stuck in things where the didn't realize what was going on. for example, that's how I ended up working in financial trading for a while. But I got out. It may take them a while, but others can too. And for those that can't figure it out or don't care? I don't want to work with them until they do. They get to make their choices, but I get to make mine.
    - 4y ago

UncleEntity 4y ago

> Similarly, I'd look very carefully at anybody… Not everyone can afford to piss off a job because it doesn’t perfectly align with their moral compass. All this talk about recession, unaffordable housing, tech layoffs and whatever else gets page views might make someone just a little hesitant to up and quit a job because the company is run by a raving lunatic. Must be nice though to be in a position where you can create a class of undesirable peoples.

wpietri 4y ago
Sure. And you can "not anybody can" for all sorts of factors that are relevant in hiring. Not everybody can work on interesting projects. Not everybody is given a chance to lead. Not everybody is working at places where they get to use modern tooling. Etc., etc. You seem to be acting as if I'm going to just throw out any resume with Twitter on it. What I said was I'd look very carefully at someone, which is what I'd do with literally dozens of causes of concern. And "perfectly align" is pretty hyperbolic. If you're exaggerating like this for hit-dogs-holler reasons, you might think about that.
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  > You seem to be acting as if I'm going to just throw out any resume with Twitter on it. You did imply that is the case. The only people who stayed post-musk have compromised morals or they would have left with the rest of the right thinkers. Maybe not what you meant but what I read.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    You inferred that, but it is neither what I meant nor what I said.
roguecoder 4y ago
I'm sorry actions have consequences. That must be disappointing. I once saw a resume that had Enron, Wells Fargo, Uber and a crypto scam on it. That thing went straight in the bin. I'd have way more respect for someone who spent a couple of years bagging groceries than someone who embraced an abusive, toxic culture out of greed.