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As a user - I don't want web based "apps" - I actively avoid anywhere I can. I want native apps - they better align to my operating systems native UI/UX, are m

As a user - I don't want web based "apps" - I actively avoid anywhere I can. I want native apps - they better align to my operating systems native UI/UX, are more performant, have less (potentially insecure). Yes - Platform APIs absolutely should be made available to varying technologies where security is less of a concern, But I'll take a few high quality apps over a plethora of 'creative' web-apps any day of the week. If you only need a website - just have a website, you don't need an "app" to order a beer at the pub. In my experience a large majority of people that want other people to use web-apps / glorified chrome wrappers are those that write them and often (but not always) have a vested interest promoting getting their product/features out the door over quality, performance and security.

Analemma_ 4y ago
Agreed. Web apps are a last resort, to be used grudgingly with gritted teeth if no native apps are available.
smadge 4y ago
Forgive me for inferring your reasons, but the reason you actively avoid web based apps is because the web app experience is inferior to native apps because (or at least as the thread claims) Apple and Android actively sabotaged support for web apps favoring improving native features instead of improving and supporting web features.
- smcleod 4y ago
  No, they're terrible on the desktop where they've unfortunately become ubiquitous.
lern_too_spel 4y ago
As a user, I actively avoid installing apps from restaurants and stores. Web apps are far superior and don't waste flash write cycles updating themselves repeatedly or complaining that they need to be updated if I turn off automatic updates. Also, web apps are easier to modify with extensions than native apps are to modify with Vanced-like patching.
- smcleod 4y ago
  Sure - that's just a prime candidate for a website isn't it? I don't see why you need any form of app for that.
goodSteveramos 4y ago
Agreed. The problem with web ‘apps’ (as opposed to web ‘pages’) is that they are completely controlled by the remote server. They turn your computer into a thin client controlled by “the cloud” where every mouse movement can be used to track and profile you. This is why Google wants to crush Safari. The ideal is locally running libre software implementing open protocols. Web pages should be static documents only. Apple of course wants proprietary local apps so i dont support either Google or Apple’s vision.
- no_way 4y ago
  You clearly never looked into how much tracking mobile apps have. There are a lot of tracking SDKs which literally track every click. At least on the web you can block things where mobile is black box.
  - smcleod 4y ago
    You have a lot more control over things running on your device / network - regardless of what they _try_ to do.
    - edgyquant 4y ago
      Your browser is running locally on your own network. These comments are out of touch with the reality of web and native apps of the last decade
  - NotPractical 4y ago
    > The ideal is locally running libre software implementing open protocols
    - h0l0cube 4y ago
      In contrast to the typical mobile user, this is a very niche M.O. Not practical for most I would say.
- edgyquant 4y ago
mattwad 4y ago
Apps are not always more secure. I have a baby monitoring app that is always using my mic on Android, even though i have "only when I'm using the app" enabled. I can close a website, and it's gone. I cannot just close an app - those little suckers are running 24/7 doing god knows what
- smcleod 4y ago
  For sure - I didn't say they're always more secure. But in general - the majority of (maintained) applications that have less dependencies tend to be. Just have a look at the insane number of NPM packages a node application includes - good luck running (timely) automated analysis across all of those let alone maintaining the dependency tree.
  - h0l0cube 4y ago
    > the majority of (maintained) applications that have less dependencies tend to be As a mobile dev (and sometimes web dev) I can tell you that dependencies (implicit and explicit) are numerous in even the most basic of apps. > good luck running (timely) automated analysis across all of those let alone maintaining the dependency tree `npm audit fix`? There's nothing even like this on Android or iOS.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > `npm audit fix`? There's nothing even like this on Android or iOS. Because you don't need anything remotely like this for any proper app platform. I know of a complex web app that has more than half a million entries in its yarn.lock file. Five. Hundred. Thousand. Dependencies (of dependencies of dependencies of...) Because there's literally nothing on the web that is suitable for app development, and you have to build the entire world from scratch, one dependency at a time, every single time. And of course npm audit fix will not fix it because in true npm fashion even a minor update can trigger cascading failures across large swaths of the code you didn't even know were pulled in.
      - 4y ago
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
What do you think most apps are? Frontends to some faraway backend web service. With some TLC most users wouldn't know the difference.
- smcleod 4y ago
  Maybe for you - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34254339 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34254339
elforce002 4y ago
I agree with you.
antihero 4y ago
I think the issue is that generally speaking making an app takes more time and resources than building a website so it locks smaller players out and reduces choice to some extent. It makes things more centralised. Sure you can build something in react native but it requires a hell of a lot more skills than whipping up some HTML and pouring your heart out…

Analemma_ 4y ago

Agreed. Web apps are a last resort, to be used grudgingly with gritted teeth if no native apps are available.

smadge 4y ago

Forgive me for inferring your reasons, but the reason you actively avoid web based apps is because the web app experience is inferior to native apps because (or at least as the thread claims) Apple and Android actively sabotaged support for web apps favoring improving native features instead of improving and supporting web features.

smcleod 4y ago
No, they're terrible on the desktop where they've unfortunately become ubiquitous.

lern_too_spel 4y ago

As a user, I actively avoid installing apps from restaurants and stores. Web apps are far superior and don't waste flash write cycles updating themselves repeatedly or complaining that they need to be updated if I turn off automatic updates. Also, web apps are easier to modify with extensions than native apps are to modify with Vanced-like patching.

smcleod 4y ago
Sure - that's just a prime candidate for a website isn't it? I don't see why you need any form of app for that.

goodSteveramos 4y ago

Agreed. The problem with web ‘apps’ (as opposed to web ‘pages’) is that they are completely controlled by the remote server. They turn your computer into a thin client controlled by “the cloud” where every mouse movement can be used to track and profile you. This is why Google wants to crush Safari. The ideal is locally running libre software implementing open protocols. Web pages should be static documents only. Apple of course wants proprietary local apps so i dont support either Google or Apple’s vision.

no_way 4y ago
You clearly never looked into how much tracking mobile apps have. There are a lot of tracking SDKs which literally track every click. At least on the web you can block things where mobile is black box.
- smcleod 4y ago
  You have a lot more control over things running on your device / network - regardless of what they _try_ to do.
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    Your browser is running locally on your own network. These comments are out of touch with the reality of web and native apps of the last decade
- NotPractical 4y ago
  > The ideal is locally running libre software implementing open protocols
  - h0l0cube 4y ago
    In contrast to the typical mobile user, this is a very niche M.O. Not practical for most I would say.
edgyquant 4y ago

mattwad 4y ago

Apps are not always more secure. I have a baby monitoring app that is always using my mic on Android, even though i have "only when I'm using the app" enabled. I can close a website, and it's gone. I cannot just close an app - those little suckers are running 24/7 doing god knows what

smcleod 4y ago
For sure - I didn't say they're always more secure. But in general - the majority of (maintained) applications that have less dependencies tend to be. Just have a look at the insane number of NPM packages a node application includes - good luck running (timely) automated analysis across all of those let alone maintaining the dependency tree.
- h0l0cube 4y ago
  > the majority of (maintained) applications that have less dependencies tend to be As a mobile dev (and sometimes web dev) I can tell you that dependencies (implicit and explicit) are numerous in even the most basic of apps. > good luck running (timely) automated analysis across all of those let alone maintaining the dependency tree `npm audit fix`? There's nothing even like this on Android or iOS.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > `npm audit fix`? There's nothing even like this on Android or iOS. Because you don't need anything remotely like this for any proper app platform. I know of a complex web app that has more than half a million entries in its yarn.lock file. Five. Hundred. Thousand. Dependencies (of dependencies of dependencies of...) Because there's literally nothing on the web that is suitable for app development, and you have to build the entire world from scratch, one dependency at a time, every single time. And of course npm audit fix will not fix it because in true npm fashion even a minor update can trigger cascading failures across large swaths of the code you didn't even know were pulled in.
    - 4y ago

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

What do you think most apps are? Frontends to some faraway backend web service. With some TLC most users wouldn't know the difference.

smcleod 4y ago
Maybe for you - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34254339 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34254339

elforce002 4y ago

I agree with you.

antihero 4y ago

I think the issue is that generally speaking making an app takes more time and resources than building a website so it locks smaller players out and reduces choice to some extent. It makes things more centralised. Sure you can build something in react native but it requires a hell of a lot more skills than whipping up some HTML and pouring your heart out…