4 ms·
Buried in the first assumption is the question of structure. Instead of chemistry, which I will refer to only by analogy, let's imagine Tinkertoys, the old woo
by at_a_remove 4y ago
Buried in the first assumption is the question of structure.
Instead of chemistry, which I will refer to only by analogy, let's imagine Tinkertoys, the old wooden ones.
0) A tinkertoy ball with zero holes can connect to nothing. It is a monad. It is boring. You can build nothing with it. This is rather like a noble gas. (Hahah yes you can build a cage around Xenon very clever thank you move along)
1) A tinkertoy ball with one hole can connect to another tinkertoy ball. If you have only these, well, you can form pairs with them, but nothing beyond the pairs. This looks like diatomic molecules. You can jumble them about but you cannot build a larger structure with them. Another dead end.
2) A tinkertoy ball with two holes can connect with two other tinkertoy balls with the same number of holes. If this is all you have you can build a long chain, as long as you like. Were it not so ruthlessly hungry for other electrons, ozone, which is to say three oxygen atoms, is a very flawed example. Sulfur, the next Group VI element, is better ... you can make chains of six to thirty sulfurs rather easily.
Let me pause here. This is really a fundamental question: can you do anything interesting with this chain of sulfur atoms? Are there fascinating Van der Waals self-interactions? Can you effectively "knot" these chains, forming a higher level structure? This is the absolute bleeding edge.
I propose that you need to hit ...
3) Tinkertoy balls with three or more holes. At that point you can form branching structures or a flat plane, and so on. This would be your nitrogens and phosphorus-analogues.
My general thought is that, whether you have whole atoms with valence electrons, or wads of nuclei in a neutron star, whatever "chemistry" or equivalent is going on, you need three holes, or the ability to form three connections to other components, to create structure more than a humble chain, and that these connections must be relatively stable. If there is a chemistry analogue occurring on or in a neutron star, or some kind of strange plasma, or really anything, you must have a minimum number of connections to form a large enough structure to be more than just isolated bits of matter.
I will allow that the "chain" model of just two connections might lead to something, but I wouldn't lay money on it.
Granted, I'm a fan of Forward (and his son's work as well), but my guess is that the nucleonic matter alone wouldn't support those kind or number of connections, or "bonds," as fun as it is o think about.
- monkeycantype 4y agoChains of amino acids can form interesting proteins by 3d folding a 1d chain, so I wouldn't give up on your two hole tinker toys so quickly. Perhaps 2 hole node structures will never dominate in an environment with 3 hole nodes, but in an environment with only 2 hole nodes, 2 holes are the only game in town. I think we're going to find life everywhere, and everywhere life will have constructed itself from the best tools available - the most efficient physics and chemistry in that environment, but that the minimal requirements for a toolkit that life can use to fight against entropy will be much lower that the decadent luxury of the CHONPS toolkit we enjoy.
- at_a_remove 4y agoRight, but those amino acid chains are rich with self-interactions because the subunits each have so many different elements within them, like those big cheaters carbon and nitrogen. You can get all kinds of exciting stuff with that. Were they only chains of sulfurs, could we get much out of it? Knots, possibly, I could make room for a knot in the chain of sulfur leading to something interesting, or a vague Van der Waals or other second, even third-order effect, but it's really on the knife edge of possibility.
- monkeycantype 4y agohello remove, Of course your right, but what if absolute efficiency doesn't matter all, what if the only thing that matters is relative efficiency? If knots and folds of two bonded atoms could create units with different properties : hydrophobic, and hydrophilic (or the equivalent properties to some other non aquatic medium), forming corkscrews, forming sheets, forming cross chain links - then perhaps it doesn't matter how convoluted the solutions are, perhaps all that matters is whether it is relatively efficient compared to other competing solutions. What I think makes this more than just a hypothetical to ponder is that perhaps this is fundamental to understanding the origins of life. Perhaps early life was complex without being sophisticated, having terribly inefficient metabolic pathways, a chaos of reactions in which only a bare sliver of energy was directed towards useful activities, perhaps the activities of those early cells unfolded slowly over thousands of years and it didn't matter because there was no other life to compete with.