5 ms·

`asdf` allows this for all languages, not just Node, one stop shop. That said, yea, the JS ecosystem is literal cancer.

seanw444 4y ago
I find it hilarious that JS was basically invented overnight, and ever since, it's just been layers of hodgepodge added and held together with hot glue to make it all work. And now it's the most popular programming language in the world, even outside of its original intended domain. How we got ourselves here, I don't know.
- krapp 4y ago
  It was the first programming language available to the general public that was easy enough for the public to use without a CS education - and it running on the web made it ubiquitous. Then SV happened, and the web became Serious Business. Then Node.js happened and Javascript became Serious Business, and with that came the byzantine horror of complexity necessary to get a toy scripting language invented in a week to replace every enterprise programming language in existence because managers could toss a rock out of their office window and it would bounce off of three web devs before hitting the ground.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    > It was the first programming language available to the general public that was easy enough for the public to use without a CS education - and it running on the web made it ubiquitous. BASIC would like a word. Heck, even Python came 4 years before JS.
    - krapp 4y ago
      Javascript was still easier to use and more readily available than either of those.
      - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
        Debatable. I find JavaScript's type system to be horrendous and bug prone. I'd rather operations between two types that don't make sense (like dividing an Array by an Object) to throw an explicit error than to just do some unpredictable shit that causes a subtle bug. Also, BASIC is probably the easiest language to learn, though this is mostly because it lacks capabilities that create complexities. It's a completely obsolete language.
        amalgamated_inc 4y ago
        Probably a generational thing. I learned BASIC, but when I was a kid, I had not internet, no phone, and no browser. Nowadays everyone has 10 JavaScript interpreters in every device, so it's much more accessible than finding out about and installing BASIC. BASIC also lost all relevance in terms of actually being useful (if it ever had it), whereas JS is the bee's knees.
        ElectricalUnion 4y ago
        > Also, COBOL is probably the easiest language to learn, is mostly Just English. /s FTFY.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  Most programming languages have underwhelming origin stories and are evolutionary hodgepodges held together with hot glue. The most likely opposite to "basically invented overnight" is "designed by committee", and is that much preferable? Origin stories aren't the end of the story either. Humble origins aside, JS has had many of the best minds in many of the largest companies contribute all sorts of feature work and performance efforts across a span of decades. How many languages can claim that many eyeballs and that diverse a set of language developers and engine writers? Sure, a lot of it looks like a hodgepodge, especially with its mandatory, deep respect for backward compatibility, because no one wants to break an old website. But show me the language with any respect for backward compatibility that doesn't look like a hodgepodge? Core systems languages like C and C++ started out as intentional hodgepodges. Their macro system was originally its own, different, language brought in from another existing project for some temporary duty, and now enshrined in the language as a forever feature. Hodgepodges are how languages are built and evolved. That's how we got ourselves here: the natural way. Every programming language on the planet is its own beautiful house of cards, built piece at a time. Don't just look down on JS because it went "mainstream".
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    Common Lisp and Java were two of the first languages designed by adults and they broke those trends.
    - amalgamated_inc 4y ago
      I've never used CL but heard it's very "design by committee." Java is worse than JS. So yea, maybe hodge podge is actually the best option we have.
      - WorldMaker 4y ago
        Yeah, the "Common" in Common Lisp comes from committee. Lisp itself was a "basically designed overnight" language that became an incredibly popular hodge podge of a million snowflake variants and then eventually two competing attempts to standardize and clean up the hodge podge happened: Scheme (to my understanding a BFDL-like situation of a strong figure building anew, with few backwards compatibility cares) and Common Lisp (a standards committee and then some, with a bunch of backwards compatibility shenanigans to sort out). (ETA: I am a fan of Common Lisp, for what that is worth, if this sounds too critical. It's a very nice language. Some of what has made it nice was a massive committee and standards effort, very similar to the way JS has continued to evolve under TC-39 stewardship.) Also yeah, my impression of Java was that it was very design-by-committee.
8note 4y ago
There is something really special about that cancer. It's the only language I've written in where no matter what code I'm writing, I can always think "this could be fully generalized and spun out into a package"

I find it hilarious that JS was basically invented overnight, and ever since, it's just been layers of hodgepodge added and held together with hot glue to make it all work. And now it's the most popular programming language in the world, even outside of its original intended domain. How we got ourselves here, I don't know.

krapp 4y ago
It was the first programming language available to the general public that was easy enough for the public to use without a CS education - and it running on the web made it ubiquitous. Then SV happened, and the web became Serious Business. Then Node.js happened and Javascript became Serious Business, and with that came the byzantine horror of complexity necessary to get a toy scripting language invented in a week to replace every enterprise programming language in existence because managers could toss a rock out of their office window and it would bounce off of three web devs before hitting the ground.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > It was the first programming language available to the general public that was easy enough for the public to use without a CS education - and it running on the web made it ubiquitous. BASIC would like a word. Heck, even Python came 4 years before JS.
  - krapp 4y ago
    Javascript was still easier to use and more readily available than either of those.
    - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
      Debatable. I find JavaScript's type system to be horrendous and bug prone. I'd rather operations between two types that don't make sense (like dividing an Array by an Object) to throw an explicit error than to just do some unpredictable shit that causes a subtle bug. Also, BASIC is probably the easiest language to learn, though this is mostly because it lacks capabilities that create complexities. It's a completely obsolete language.
      - amalgamated_inc 4y ago
        Probably a generational thing. I learned BASIC, but when I was a kid, I had not internet, no phone, and no browser. Nowadays everyone has 10 JavaScript interpreters in every device, so it's much more accessible than finding out about and installing BASIC. BASIC also lost all relevance in terms of actually being useful (if it ever had it), whereas JS is the bee's knees.
      - ElectricalUnion 4y ago
        > Also, COBOL is probably the easiest language to learn, is mostly Just English. /s FTFY.
WorldMaker 4y ago
Most programming languages have underwhelming origin stories and are evolutionary hodgepodges held together with hot glue. The most likely opposite to "basically invented overnight" is "designed by committee", and is that much preferable? Origin stories aren't the end of the story either. Humble origins aside, JS has had many of the best minds in many of the largest companies contribute all sorts of feature work and performance efforts across a span of decades. How many languages can claim that many eyeballs and that diverse a set of language developers and engine writers? Sure, a lot of it looks like a hodgepodge, especially with its mandatory, deep respect for backward compatibility, because no one wants to break an old website. But show me the language with any respect for backward compatibility that doesn't look like a hodgepodge? Core systems languages like C and C++ started out as intentional hodgepodges. Their macro system was originally its own, different, language brought in from another existing project for some temporary duty, and now enshrined in the language as a forever feature. Hodgepodges are how languages are built and evolved. That's how we got ourselves here: the natural way. Every programming language on the planet is its own beautiful house of cards, built piece at a time. Don't just look down on JS because it went "mainstream".
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  Common Lisp and Java were two of the first languages designed by adults and they broke those trends.
  - amalgamated_inc 4y ago
    I've never used CL but heard it's very "design by committee." Java is worse than JS. So yea, maybe hodge podge is actually the best option we have.
    - WorldMaker 4y ago
      Yeah, the "Common" in Common Lisp comes from committee. Lisp itself was a "basically designed overnight" language that became an incredibly popular hodge podge of a million snowflake variants and then eventually two competing attempts to standardize and clean up the hodge podge happened: Scheme (to my understanding a BFDL-like situation of a strong figure building anew, with few backwards compatibility cares) and Common Lisp (a standards committee and then some, with a bunch of backwards compatibility shenanigans to sort out). (ETA: I am a fan of Common Lisp, for what that is worth, if this sounds too critical. It's a very nice language. Some of what has made it nice was a massive committee and standards effort, very similar to the way JS has continued to evolve under TC-39 stewardship.) Also yeah, my impression of Java was that it was very design-by-committee.

8note 4y ago

There is something really special about that cancer. It's the only language I've written in where no matter what code I'm writing, I can always think "this could be fully generalized and spun out into a package"