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NYC has 30,000 streets and only a handful of days of snow in the year. By having garbage trucks that can deal with a few inches of snow, you avoid the need of b

NYC has 30,000 streets and only a handful of days of snow in the year. By having garbage trucks that can deal with a few inches of snow, you avoid the need of buying dozens of dedicated vehicles that will rot 360 days a year.

mabbo 4y ago
You're not wrong. I agree with you. I just see that as a better option than continuing to burn fuel in trucks that don't need it 360 days per year.
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  Better for whom or what? Surely not for the New York City budget, or the folks who pay for it.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    Better for those folks and the budget, both of which will feel the full impact of climate change. (But I don't think a separate fleet is the answer.)
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      It’s better for the environment to build and maintain a separate fleet of occasionally-used snow plows?
      - wolverine876 4y ago
        Did you read the second sentence? I mean, I know people don't read entire articles, but two sentences?
        JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > Did you read the second sentence? You said a separate fleet is better “for the folks and the budget” of New York, and added a parenthetical clarifying that it isn’t the answer. I’m agreeing with the second sentence, that a separate fleet isn’t the answer. I’m also refuting the first point, that it’s better than the status quo.
        wolverine876 4y ago
        Not a separate fleet, just electrifying the trucks somehow would be beneficial (depending on how that's done, of course - not with coal-fired charging stations on every block). I'm just trying to include the factor of climate change, which does and will cost a ton.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - wernercd 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - KMag 4y ago
        > Might as well believe in Halley's Comet and enjoy a cool glass of koolaid. Have I just run into an Internet conspiracy theory where Halley's Comet is "what the man wants you to believe, wake up sheeple?"
        wolverine876 4y ago
        Maybe they were joking: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11286314/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11286314/
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  Is that just how you feel? Or can you show the conversion saves resources even when you have to buy and maintain dozens of extra vehicles? This seems to me like you’re making a negative decision just because you find it emotionally satisfying, without any reasonable basis to believe that it improves things.
- gen220 4y ago
  Might the better option be a hybrid truck, which runs on electricity 90% of the time but has the capacity to use fossil fuels in situations such as these? (snow is but one example, I can imagine other exceptional circumstances where such a vehicle might need an extra boost). To balance your suggestion, the environmental cost of constructing, shipping, and maintaining a fleet of single-purpose snow plows is not close to zero.
  - culi 4y ago
    Along the same line, can we modularize these trucks? Like the specific parts useful for snowplowing, can we take them off the rest of the year (less gas wasted) and add them back on only when needed
alcover 4y ago
> only a handful of days of snow in the year I know modern economy has gone full-JIT but I naively wish we could just stop in this case and.. wait. Then this question of truck fleet would be moot.
- rsstack 4y ago
  First: I don't go out in snow beyond a couple of blocks, things can wait. But that's me. Second: Just because the snow stops falling doesn't mean the problem goes away. The snow can take a couple of weeks to melt (essentially until the next rain, or a hot enough day), so stopping and waiting for nature to resolve the situation on its own would shut down the city for a month or so every year.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    And during that time, it can turn to ice.
  - thomascgalvin 4y ago
    I wonder how much it would cost to heat the roads rather than plow them, and how that would compare to the current solution, long-term. NYC already has an extensive underground infrastructure ...
    - rsstack 4y ago
      It is essentially impossible to add anything underground in NYC _because_ of the extensive underground infrastructure. It is all but saturated.
- Bostonian 4y ago
  Millions of NYC residents have jobs and schools to go to and grocery shopping to be done. Locking them down for even a few days has huge costs.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > naively wish we could just stop in this case and.. wait Congratulations, you shut off logistics and emergency services for a population the size of Virginia.
lowbloodsugar 4y ago
What you are describing is overspeccing (thus over paying upfront and for maintenance) of the large fleet in order to avoid having a small fleet. Alternatively, the large fleet could be appropriately specced and the small fleet can be “mothballed” the rest of the year, thus preserving its longevity.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > large fleet I order to avoid having a small fleet The large fleet is “2,230 general collection trucks, 275 specialized collection trucks, 450 street sweepers, 365 snowplows, 298 front end loaders, and 2,360 support vehicles” [1]. Those general collection trucks, together with the plows, constitute a circa 2,300-plow snow fleet [2]. Dedicated fleet means buying 2,000 more snowplows. There is no small fleet option. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Department_of_Sanitation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Department_of_... [2] https://nypost.com/2020/12/05/nyc-spent-12m-per-inch-of-snow-plowed-last-winter-report/ https://nypost.com/2020/12/05/nyc-spent-12m-per-inch-of-snow...
culi 4y ago
I was gonna suggest that they could simply share the snow plow vehicles for the rest of the year with other countries (like how we share firefighters with Australia) but then I realized the part of the world that would most likely need them when NYC doesn't is the opposite hemisphere and those vehicles are not easy to ship lol
- rsstack 4y ago
  I don't think it snows enough in big Australian cities :D And there aren't (yet) electric super-jumbo cargo planes to ship these mechanical monstrosities.
  - culi 4y ago
    Australia isn't the only landmass in the southern hemisphere :P But yeah fair point. There's pretty few places in the southern hemisphere that are in the mid to high latitudes. I wonder why that is

mabbo 4y ago

You're not wrong. I agree with you. I just see that as a better option than continuing to burn fuel in trucks that don't need it 360 days per year.

kspacewalk2 4y ago
Better for whom or what? Surely not for the New York City budget, or the folks who pay for it.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  Better for those folks and the budget, both of which will feel the full impact of climate change. (But I don't think a separate fleet is the answer.)
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    It’s better for the environment to build and maintain a separate fleet of occasionally-used snow plows?
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      Did you read the second sentence? I mean, I know people don't read entire articles, but two sentences?
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > Did you read the second sentence? You said a separate fleet is better “for the folks and the budget” of New York, and added a parenthetical clarifying that it isn’t the answer. I’m agreeing with the second sentence, that a separate fleet isn’t the answer. I’m also refuting the first point, that it’s better than the status quo.
        wolverine876 4y ago
        Not a separate fleet, just electrifying the trucks somehow would be beneficial (depending on how that's done, of course - not with coal-fired charging stations on every block). I'm just trying to include the factor of climate change, which does and will cost a ton.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - wernercd 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - KMag 4y ago
      > Might as well believe in Halley's Comet and enjoy a cool glass of koolaid. Have I just run into an Internet conspiracy theory where Halley's Comet is "what the man wants you to believe, wake up sheeple?"
      - wolverine876 4y ago
        Maybe they were joking: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11286314/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11286314/
zmgsabst 4y ago
Is that just how you feel? Or can you show the conversion saves resources even when you have to buy and maintain dozens of extra vehicles? This seems to me like you’re making a negative decision just because you find it emotionally satisfying, without any reasonable basis to believe that it improves things.
gen220 4y ago
Might the better option be a hybrid truck, which runs on electricity 90% of the time but has the capacity to use fossil fuels in situations such as these? (snow is but one example, I can imagine other exceptional circumstances where such a vehicle might need an extra boost). To balance your suggestion, the environmental cost of constructing, shipping, and maintaining a fleet of single-purpose snow plows is not close to zero.
- culi 4y ago
  Along the same line, can we modularize these trucks? Like the specific parts useful for snowplowing, can we take them off the rest of the year (less gas wasted) and add them back on only when needed

alcover 4y ago

> only a handful of days of snow in the year I know modern economy has gone full-JIT but I naively wish we could just stop in this case and.. wait. Then this question of truck fleet would be moot.

rsstack 4y ago
First: I don't go out in snow beyond a couple of blocks, things can wait. But that's me. Second: Just because the snow stops falling doesn't mean the problem goes away. The snow can take a couple of weeks to melt (essentially until the next rain, or a hot enough day), so stopping and waiting for nature to resolve the situation on its own would shut down the city for a month or so every year.
- giantg2 4y ago
  And during that time, it can turn to ice.
- thomascgalvin 4y ago
  I wonder how much it would cost to heat the roads rather than plow them, and how that would compare to the current solution, long-term. NYC already has an extensive underground infrastructure ...
  - rsstack 4y ago
    It is essentially impossible to add anything underground in NYC _because_ of the extensive underground infrastructure. It is all but saturated.
Bostonian 4y ago
Millions of NYC residents have jobs and schools to go to and grocery shopping to be done. Locking them down for even a few days has huge costs.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> naively wish we could just stop in this case and.. wait Congratulations, you shut off logistics and emergency services for a population the size of Virginia.

lowbloodsugar 4y ago

What you are describing is overspeccing (thus over paying upfront and for maintenance) of the large fleet in order to avoid having a small fleet. Alternatively, the large fleet could be appropriately specced and the small fleet can be “mothballed” the rest of the year, thus preserving its longevity.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> large fleet I order to avoid having a small fleet The large fleet is “2,230 general collection trucks, 275 specialized collection trucks, 450 street sweepers, 365 snowplows, 298 front end loaders, and 2,360 support vehicles” [1]. Those general collection trucks, together with the plows, constitute a circa 2,300-plow snow fleet [2]. Dedicated fleet means buying 2,000 more snowplows. There is no small fleet option. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Department_of_Sanitation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Department_of_... [2] https://nypost.com/2020/12/05/nyc-spent-12m-per-inch-of-snow-plowed-last-winter-report/ https://nypost.com/2020/12/05/nyc-spent-12m-per-inch-of-snow...

culi 4y ago

I was gonna suggest that they could simply share the snow plow vehicles for the rest of the year with other countries (like how we share firefighters with Australia) but then I realized the part of the world that would most likely need them when NYC doesn't is the opposite hemisphere and those vehicles are not easy to ship lol

rsstack 4y ago
I don't think it snows enough in big Australian cities :D And there aren't (yet) electric super-jumbo cargo planes to ship these mechanical monstrosities.
- culi 4y ago
  Australia isn't the only landmass in the southern hemisphere :P But yeah fair point. There's pretty few places in the southern hemisphere that are in the mid to high latitudes. I wonder why that is