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Globalization never applied to national security, what’s changed is how chips are viewed through the lens of national defense. ITAR products were never built in

Globalization never applied to national security, what’s changed is how chips are viewed through the lens of national defense. ITAR products were never built in China and never would have been. globalization is dead is an overstatement, which has a shred of truth to it.

twobitshifter 4y ago
I think with IOT, the scope of National security is larger than we have ever seen in the past. Simple Doodads might be globalized, but what happens when everyone’s Chinese made EV unexpectedly stops and can’t be restarted? At this point every smart device can be a security threat.
- vmladenov 4y ago
  Someone will build a control module and people will install it. They’re motors and batteries, not magic.
  - jjk166 4y ago
    Sure, but how long is it going to take to design, produce, and install a few million such modules? Months? Years? If a security backdoor shutdown a few million cars all at once, there would be immense damage done within minutes as cars start slamming into eachother, hours as people deal with horrific traffic jams, and days as all those people who relied on those vehicles are stuck without their primary mode of transportation. If coordinated with other attacks (cyber or otherwise) it could easily be crippling to a response. Yeah we're not going to be permanently knocked out, but it's nice to avoid getting punched in the face to begin with.
- mikrotikker 4y ago
  Even scarier is the infrastructure threats. Lots of news about Hikvision cameras at the moment. Most five eyes countries have warded off Huawei, but NZ is full steam ahead with them in backbone infra. Similarly China is trying to loan a lot of money to the Solomon Islands to build way more Huawei towers than they actually need. Then you have those sketchy power transformers in the US that they surprisingly found were dialing home to China. Trump put restrictions on this, but Biden removed them his first day in office only to reintroduce them in the past few months.
brookst 4y ago
Well said. Globalization is only increasing as remote work makes location less important for even more job functions. Certainly I don't see US companies onshoring huge call centers because of a sudden distrust of globalization.
- sarchertech 4y ago
  I don’t know if it’s a sudden distrust of globalization causing it, but I’ve noticed a huge upswing in the percent of customer support people with American accents over the last few years.
- jandrewrogers 4y ago
  Anecdotally, I've noticed that in recent years many call centers are staffed by people that speak with accents and idioms that suggest they are from one of the "flyover" regions of the US. I suppose they could be faking an accent from somewhere overseas, but if that was the case I wouldn't expect them to borrow their English from those parts of the US.
sidewndr46 4y ago
I'm not really sure what you are trying to convey, but if you want to import "materiel" (which is what ITAR covers mostly) from China and you have a valid export license from them you're mostly OK. Good luck ever getting it back out of the US. Also you can't import fully automatic weapons without the right license, but that is an NFA issue. Not ITAR. What you can't do is just decide that you're going to outsource your manufacturing of something covered under ITAR to China and transfer all the knowledge and tooling to China to do that. Which is exactly what Hamilton Sundstrand did. They got a slap on the wrist: https://www.exportsolutionsinc.com/resources/blog/itar-violation-penalties-china/ https://www.exportsolutionsinc.com/resources/blog/itar-viola...
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  > Also you can't import fully automatic weapons without the right license, but that is an NFA issue. Not ITAR. You can't import any sort of gun nor ammunition from China. Not rifles since 1993, nor any other sort of gun since 2003. NFA doesn't come into it because even single shot Norinco sporting shotguns are banned from import to America.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    That is a bit odd to ban even sporting firearms. Which law is that?
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      Various sanctions, initially justified because of some gangs/smuggling scandal, but really it's because Norinco is controlled by the PRC and allowing Americans do to business with Norinco is counter to American strategic interests. And I'm sure it doesn't hurt that such a ban is good for American manufacturers too. You don't hear much from the NRA complaining about this ban.
      - MichaelZuo 4y ago
        There are other associations and organizations who would desire higher availability of sporting firearms.
notahacker 4y ago
Yep. The fact a Taiwanese company has opened a plant in the US so that it might be in a position to corner that particular market in that particular country if that particular country introduces further security policy changes is neither here nor there in the scope of a world where most consumer goods in most countries are imported Globalization is dead when every country that uses chips has its own semiconductor plants...
- hef19898 4y ago
  And then it is only globalization for micro chips. For everything else... Globalization is as old as humanity, there are traces of long distance trade as far back as the bronze age. Globalization will change, as will goods flows, but it will not go away.
  - funcDropShadow 4y ago
    Long distance trade is not the same as globalization. Globablization is the trend to optimize production capacities on a global scale. Even during times that followed the opposite trend --- if I remember correctly France did that in the 18th or 17th century --- long distance trade existed.
anon223345 4y ago
ITAR is an export restriction, not an import restriction. ITAR restricted items are absolutely partially manufactured in China and are then assembled in the US Sending the assembled items BACK to China is where you get in trouble. I think you may not understand ITAR but I see the point you’re trying to make
- floxy 4y ago
  Probably thinking of the various DFARS regulations, like you can only use stainless steel and various other metals that were melted in the U.S. or other allied countries for government/military projects. DFARS compliant 1/4-20 stainless fasteners are ~100 times more expensive than what you'd find at your local hardware store.
- comte7092 4y ago
  I am not going to pretend that I actually know the details of itar, but suffice to say my understanding is that it is in essence an export restriction on military technology. Hence, while you can source certain aspects of the supply chain from abroad, you can’t offshore the whole industry wholesale, which is the main point. Even with the hubbub about TSMC, the chip maneuvering is only about bleeding edge chips, not the chip industry as a whole.
Manuel_D 4y ago
ITAR products most certainly sourced components from China. Yes, cutting edge image sensors and GPS modules aren't made in China. But if you waved a wand and made every Chinese-made component disappear a lot of ITAR products would stop working.

twobitshifter 4y ago

I think with IOT, the scope of National security is larger than we have ever seen in the past. Simple Doodads might be globalized, but what happens when everyone’s Chinese made EV unexpectedly stops and can’t be restarted? At this point every smart device can be a security threat.

vmladenov 4y ago
Someone will build a control module and people will install it. They’re motors and batteries, not magic.
- jjk166 4y ago
  Sure, but how long is it going to take to design, produce, and install a few million such modules? Months? Years? If a security backdoor shutdown a few million cars all at once, there would be immense damage done within minutes as cars start slamming into eachother, hours as people deal with horrific traffic jams, and days as all those people who relied on those vehicles are stuck without their primary mode of transportation. If coordinated with other attacks (cyber or otherwise) it could easily be crippling to a response. Yeah we're not going to be permanently knocked out, but it's nice to avoid getting punched in the face to begin with.
mikrotikker 4y ago
Even scarier is the infrastructure threats. Lots of news about Hikvision cameras at the moment. Most five eyes countries have warded off Huawei, but NZ is full steam ahead with them in backbone infra. Similarly China is trying to loan a lot of money to the Solomon Islands to build way more Huawei towers than they actually need. Then you have those sketchy power transformers in the US that they surprisingly found were dialing home to China. Trump put restrictions on this, but Biden removed them his first day in office only to reintroduce them in the past few months.

brookst 4y ago

Well said. Globalization is only increasing as remote work makes location less important for even more job functions. Certainly I don't see US companies onshoring huge call centers because of a sudden distrust of globalization.

sarchertech 4y ago
I don’t know if it’s a sudden distrust of globalization causing it, but I’ve noticed a huge upswing in the percent of customer support people with American accents over the last few years.
jandrewrogers 4y ago
Anecdotally, I've noticed that in recent years many call centers are staffed by people that speak with accents and idioms that suggest they are from one of the "flyover" regions of the US. I suppose they could be faking an accent from somewhere overseas, but if that was the case I wouldn't expect them to borrow their English from those parts of the US.

sidewndr46 4y ago

I'm not really sure what you are trying to convey, but if you want to import "materiel" (which is what ITAR covers mostly) from China and you have a valid export license from them you're mostly OK. Good luck ever getting it back out of the US. Also you can't import fully automatic weapons without the right license, but that is an NFA issue. Not ITAR. What you can't do is just decide that you're going to outsource your manufacturing of something covered under ITAR to China and transfer all the knowledge and tooling to China to do that. Which is exactly what Hamilton Sundstrand did. They got a slap on the wrist: https://www.exportsolutionsinc.com/resources/blog/itar-violation-penalties-china/ https://www.exportsolutionsinc.com/resources/blog/itar-viola...

LarryMullins 4y ago
> Also you can't import fully automatic weapons without the right license, but that is an NFA issue. Not ITAR. You can't import any sort of gun nor ammunition from China. Not rifles since 1993, nor any other sort of gun since 2003. NFA doesn't come into it because even single shot Norinco sporting shotguns are banned from import to America.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  That is a bit odd to ban even sporting firearms. Which law is that?
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    Various sanctions, initially justified because of some gangs/smuggling scandal, but really it's because Norinco is controlled by the PRC and allowing Americans do to business with Norinco is counter to American strategic interests. And I'm sure it doesn't hurt that such a ban is good for American manufacturers too. You don't hear much from the NRA complaining about this ban.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      There are other associations and organizations who would desire higher availability of sporting firearms.

notahacker 4y ago

Yep. The fact a Taiwanese company has opened a plant in the US so that it might be in a position to corner that particular market in that particular country if that particular country introduces further security policy changes is neither here nor there in the scope of a world where most consumer goods in most countries are imported Globalization is dead when every country that uses chips has its own semiconductor plants...

hef19898 4y ago
And then it is only globalization for micro chips. For everything else... Globalization is as old as humanity, there are traces of long distance trade as far back as the bronze age. Globalization will change, as will goods flows, but it will not go away.
- funcDropShadow 4y ago
  Long distance trade is not the same as globalization. Globablization is the trend to optimize production capacities on a global scale. Even during times that followed the opposite trend --- if I remember correctly France did that in the 18th or 17th century --- long distance trade existed.

anon223345 4y ago

ITAR is an export restriction, not an import restriction. ITAR restricted items are absolutely partially manufactured in China and are then assembled in the US Sending the assembled items BACK to China is where you get in trouble. I think you may not understand ITAR but I see the point you’re trying to make

floxy 4y ago
Probably thinking of the various DFARS regulations, like you can only use stainless steel and various other metals that were melted in the U.S. or other allied countries for government/military projects. DFARS compliant 1/4-20 stainless fasteners are ~100 times more expensive than what you'd find at your local hardware store.
comte7092 4y ago
I am not going to pretend that I actually know the details of itar, but suffice to say my understanding is that it is in essence an export restriction on military technology. Hence, while you can source certain aspects of the supply chain from abroad, you can’t offshore the whole industry wholesale, which is the main point. Even with the hubbub about TSMC, the chip maneuvering is only about bleeding edge chips, not the chip industry as a whole.

Manuel_D 4y ago

ITAR products most certainly sourced components from China. Yes, cutting edge image sensors and GPS modules aren't made in China. But if you waved a wand and made every Chinese-made component disappear a lot of ITAR products would stop working.