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> Nobody is talking about it because it is still politically incorrect in our overall culture [1] to admit that globalization is collapsing. Arguably it is pol

by danans 4y ago

> Nobody is talking about it because it is still politically incorrect in our overall culture [1] to admit that globalization is collapsing. Arguably it is politically in vogue in the US to be against absolute globalization. For example, the EV tax credits in the IRA are exclusively for US assembled vehicles. This caused a great deal of upset among foreign carmakers who don't have significant assembly operations in the US. The IRA went even further in requiring the key component of the EV, the battery, to have it's materials sourced in US free trade partners. Vehicle manufacturing is among the most politically visible and sensitive of industries. The consensus across the right, left, and center is towards rebuilding domestic industrial capacity in strategic industries.

jerf 4y ago
"The consensus across the right, left, and center is towards rebuilding domestic industrial capacity in strategic industries." The quiet consensus of those taking action, yes, absolutely. That's part of my point. The adjustments are being made all over the place. Those who have banked a lot on talking up globalization for the past 20-30 years will get there too. It will just be a slow process of very gradually tweaking their position a little bit every year at the maximum speed they can get away with while making it look like it's just little tweaks and they were never at any point actually wrong. There was also never 100% globalization; tariffs never went to zero, etc. But a lot of that would still fall under the class of quiet actions under the hood, while the loud rhetoric was all about free trade. I've actually interacted with plenty of people on HN over the years who didn't realize that tariffs were in fact a thing, always had been, and were engaged in by all countries in the world to at least some extent, depending on their local needs. The rhetoric was "free trade! free trade! free trade!", but the reality has always been more complex.
- libraryatnight 4y ago
  You seem stuck on hostile score keeping. This is not a productive way of being. Also, you met some ignorant people on the internet and extrapolated that into something you thought was meaningful?
  - mistermann 4y ago
    Fighting a deceitful propaganda machine with individual deceitful propaganda seems like fair game to me. You and many others seem to take this system seriously, as if it is genuine and legitimate. A lot of other people disagree, and some will act accordingly (prompting more deceitful propaganda, and so forth and so on). May we live in interesting times.
    - Pigalowda 4y ago
      What is so unserious, disingenuous, and illegitimate about the “system”? I’m sure it isn’t perfect, but here I am using the “system” and living my life. Where would you rather be and what is your improvement on the “system”? Sorry to pose questions at you but I see so many strange comments on the internet that sound like “red-pilled” nonsense. If you have a good personal value proposition to society and aren’t completely entropic, life is good. If you aren’t, it’s hard. That’s been modern western life for a while now and it’s not bad. Could it be better and is there room for improvement? Absolutely. But living in parallel red pill reality is an absolutely unhelpful endeavor. I’m reminded of the Oracle at Delphi. “Know who you are” which means know your place in society (father, son, farmer, king etc and your responsibilities) and “everything in moderation”. Red pillers ignore that ancient wisdom and live in and obsess over an alternate almost completely fabricated virtual reality of no real value. Hanging out with suspicious and cynical strangers on the internet who share deep distrust of reality is depressing and isolating. After-all, you use the real system to have a life and so does everyone else. Might as well face that fact and truly engage with flesh and blood in the meat space rather than whatever or whoever is on red pill virtual land.
      - mistermann 4y ago
        > What is so unserious, disingenuous, and illegitimate about the “system”? Some examples (I could write indefinitely): https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/ponzi-hospitals-and-counterfeit-capitalism https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/ponzi-hospitals-and-count... (section "Bank Error In Our Favor" is particularly offensive, to me) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War (this sort of thing (which is fairly common) is offensive to me, as is our culture's complacency towards it) How it is (in part) perpetuated, in my estimation: - I’m sure whatever the system is it isn’t perfect. But here I am using the “system” and living my life. [rationalization] - I see so many strange comments on the internet that sound like “red-pilled” nonsense. [training-based heuristic pattern matching to ~bad/dumb/wrong] - Could it be better and is there room for improvement? Absolutely. But living in parallel red pill reality is an absolutely unhelpful endeavor. [training-based heuristic pattern matching to ~bad/dumb/wrong + cultural normalization of hallucination of reality (in this case: the future)] - After-all, you use the real system to have a life and so does everyone else. Might as well face that fact and truly engage with flesh and blood in the meat space rather than whatever or whoever is on red pill virtual land. [Stay within the Overton Window of ideas and behaviors one has been trained on] > Where would you rather be and what is your improvement on the “system”? a) How about something like "The contents of the tin (upon substantial, fine-grained inspection) matches what's on the label"? b) we shall see, maybe > If you have a good personal value proposition to society and aren’t completely entropic, life is good. If you aren’t, it’s hard. Simplistically, and largely only in theory (as I don't doubt you'd agree with if we were to dig into the nitty gritty details, which we won't as that is contrary to well-established cultural norms, at least). > That’s been modern western life for a while now and it’s not bad. Not bad for a subset, of Westerners....but we are only a minority slice of the whole. > I’m reminded of the Oracle at Delphi. “Know who you are” which means know your place in society (father, son, farmer, king etc and your responsibilities) and “everything in moderation”. I will decide my place in society, despite where society [has been trained to] believe I "should" fit in, and behave. I like the "Oracle at Delphi" idea though, perhaps there's some unharvested utility there. > Red pillers ignore that ancient wisdom and live in and obsess over an alternate almost completely fabricated virtual reality of no real value. Hanging out with suspicious and cynical strangers on the internet who share deep distrust of reality is depressing and isolating. Know what's interesting about this: you don't actually know who red-pillers are, or what they are or believe. And you do not know you do not know, because of culture (which is composed of many things, most of them sub-perceptual, and many of them downright taboo). Possibly relevant: https://youtu.be/lnA9DMvHtfI https://youtu.be/lnA9DMvHtfI https://www.bobdylan.com/songs/times-they-are-changin/ https://www.bobdylan.com/songs/times-they-are-changin/
- asdf123wtf 4y ago
  > Those who have banked a lot on talking up globalization for the past 20-30 years will get there too. It will just be a slow process of very gradually tweaking their position a little bit every year at the maximum speed they can get away with while making it look like it's just little tweaks and they were never at any point actually wrong. Is there a list of specific people here, who have aggrieved you so? Who are you even talking about?
SoftTalker 4y ago
> The consensus across the right, left, and center is towards rebuilding domestic industrial capacity in strategic industries. They will need it for the next war that will be required to get us out of the coming recession.

by danans 4y ago

jerf 4y ago

"The consensus across the right, left, and center is towards rebuilding domestic industrial capacity in strategic industries." The quiet consensus of those taking action, yes, absolutely. That's part of my point. The adjustments are being made all over the place. Those who have banked a lot on talking up globalization for the past 20-30 years will get there too. It will just be a slow process of very gradually tweaking their position a little bit every year at the maximum speed they can get away with while making it look like it's just little tweaks and they were never at any point actually wrong. There was also never 100% globalization; tariffs never went to zero, etc. But a lot of that would still fall under the class of quiet actions under the hood, while the loud rhetoric was all about free trade. I've actually interacted with plenty of people on HN over the years who didn't realize that tariffs were in fact a thing, always had been, and were engaged in by all countries in the world to at least some extent, depending on their local needs. The rhetoric was "free trade! free trade! free trade!", but the reality has always been more complex.

libraryatnight 4y ago
You seem stuck on hostile score keeping. This is not a productive way of being. Also, you met some ignorant people on the internet and extrapolated that into something you thought was meaningful?
- mistermann 4y ago
  Fighting a deceitful propaganda machine with individual deceitful propaganda seems like fair game to me. You and many others seem to take this system seriously, as if it is genuine and legitimate. A lot of other people disagree, and some will act accordingly (prompting more deceitful propaganda, and so forth and so on). May we live in interesting times.
  - Pigalowda 4y ago
    What is so unserious, disingenuous, and illegitimate about the “system”? I’m sure it isn’t perfect, but here I am using the “system” and living my life. Where would you rather be and what is your improvement on the “system”? Sorry to pose questions at you but I see so many strange comments on the internet that sound like “red-pilled” nonsense. If you have a good personal value proposition to society and aren’t completely entropic, life is good. If you aren’t, it’s hard. That’s been modern western life for a while now and it’s not bad. Could it be better and is there room for improvement? Absolutely. But living in parallel red pill reality is an absolutely unhelpful endeavor. I’m reminded of the Oracle at Delphi. “Know who you are” which means know your place in society (father, son, farmer, king etc and your responsibilities) and “everything in moderation”. Red pillers ignore that ancient wisdom and live in and obsess over an alternate almost completely fabricated virtual reality of no real value. Hanging out with suspicious and cynical strangers on the internet who share deep distrust of reality is depressing and isolating. After-all, you use the real system to have a life and so does everyone else. Might as well face that fact and truly engage with flesh and blood in the meat space rather than whatever or whoever is on red pill virtual land.
    - mistermann 4y ago
      > What is so unserious, disingenuous, and illegitimate about the “system”? Some examples (I could write indefinitely): https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/ponzi-hospitals-and-counterfeit-capitalism https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/ponzi-hospitals-and-count... (section "Bank Error In Our Favor" is particularly offensive, to me) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War (this sort of thing (which is fairly common) is offensive to me, as is our culture's complacency towards it) How it is (in part) perpetuated, in my estimation: - I’m sure whatever the system is it isn’t perfect. But here I am using the “system” and living my life. [rationalization] - I see so many strange comments on the internet that sound like “red-pilled” nonsense. [training-based heuristic pattern matching to ~bad/dumb/wrong] - Could it be better and is there room for improvement? Absolutely. But living in parallel red pill reality is an absolutely unhelpful endeavor. [training-based heuristic pattern matching to ~bad/dumb/wrong + cultural normalization of hallucination of reality (in this case: the future)] - After-all, you use the real system to have a life and so does everyone else. Might as well face that fact and truly engage with flesh and blood in the meat space rather than whatever or whoever is on red pill virtual land. [Stay within the Overton Window of ideas and behaviors one has been trained on] > Where would you rather be and what is your improvement on the “system”? a) How about something like "The contents of the tin (upon substantial, fine-grained inspection) matches what's on the label"? b) we shall see, maybe > If you have a good personal value proposition to society and aren’t completely entropic, life is good. If you aren’t, it’s hard. Simplistically, and largely only in theory (as I don't doubt you'd agree with if we were to dig into the nitty gritty details, which we won't as that is contrary to well-established cultural norms, at least). > That’s been modern western life for a while now and it’s not bad. Not bad for a subset, of Westerners....but we are only a minority slice of the whole. > I’m reminded of the Oracle at Delphi. “Know who you are” which means know your place in society (father, son, farmer, king etc and your responsibilities) and “everything in moderation”. I will decide my place in society, despite where society [has been trained to] believe I "should" fit in, and behave. I like the "Oracle at Delphi" idea though, perhaps there's some unharvested utility there. > Red pillers ignore that ancient wisdom and live in and obsess over an alternate almost completely fabricated virtual reality of no real value. Hanging out with suspicious and cynical strangers on the internet who share deep distrust of reality is depressing and isolating. Know what's interesting about this: you don't actually know who red-pillers are, or what they are or believe. And you do not know you do not know, because of culture (which is composed of many things, most of them sub-perceptual, and many of them downright taboo). Possibly relevant: https://youtu.be/lnA9DMvHtfI https://youtu.be/lnA9DMvHtfI https://www.bobdylan.com/songs/times-they-are-changin/ https://www.bobdylan.com/songs/times-they-are-changin/
asdf123wtf 4y ago
> Those who have banked a lot on talking up globalization for the past 20-30 years will get there too. It will just be a slow process of very gradually tweaking their position a little bit every year at the maximum speed they can get away with while making it look like it's just little tweaks and they were never at any point actually wrong. Is there a list of specific people here, who have aggrieved you so? Who are you even talking about?

SoftTalker 4y ago

> The consensus across the right, left, and center is towards rebuilding domestic industrial capacity in strategic industries. They will need it for the next war that will be required to get us out of the coming recession.