5 ms·

Link those numerous studies, sounds like BS

by cwkoss 4y ago

whimsicalism 4y ago
https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-europe https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-... Here's one analysis, but there are others. I would prefer a less conservative source.
- owlglass 4y ago
  When the Mises Institute publishes articles arguing that "drunk drivers cause accidents but so do sober drivers, and many drunk drivers cause no accidents at all," and therefore drunk driving should not be outlawed, it's hard to take this type of source seriously [1]. Note that the article above was published by the institute's founder. [1] https://mises.org/library/legalize-drunk-driving https://mises.org/library/legalize-drunk-driving
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    I hear what you are saying, although I would prefer an engagement on the merits of the specific points. That said, it is of course possible I overstated my case - the provenance of sources I am finding is not as strong as I would have expected.
    - julianlam 4y ago
      I feel that attacking the credibility of a source is fair game. I don't expect someone to refute every single point of an argument if the central thesis of the argument is erroneous.
      - whimsicalism 4y ago
        How did we jump from attacking the credibility of a source to the central thesis of the argument being erroneous? I'm missing the part where that was shown.
    - owlglass 4y ago
      The thrust of the article [1] is that the income defined as "Poverty Level" (60% of disposable income), is higher in the US than in many European countries. This definition is based on disposable income, which does not account for spending on childcare, healthcare, housing, etc., many of which are heavily subsidized, or simply less expensive in these European countries that are being compared to the United States. [1] https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-europe https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-... Note: I appreciate your calm responses and engagement of the arguments. I concede that I should have included some refutation or concession based on the merits of the article themselves in my original reply. Edit: to add another source refuting the Mises thesis, stating that income inequality is highest in the US among G-7 countries (https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-...)
- mpweiher 4y ago
  That's not an analysis, that's a polemic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mises_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mises_Institute Even if they got the numbers right, which I doubt, they completely miss that US income has to pay for a lot more than in most of Europe, healthcare and education just as the most prominent examples, also lack of public transit etc. And of course anyone who has ever lived both in the US and in one or more European countries knows that this "analysis" is BS.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    if you read the article, you would see that they account for social service transfers. > And of course anyone who has ever lived both in the US and in one or more European countries knows that this "analysis" is BS. mm. if we are going by anecdata, my dad grew up in Europe in latter 20th century and they could not afford shoes or electricity. his siblings were put up for adoption. things have certainly changed, but that is intense material deprivation relative to latter 20th century US.
    - akiselev 4y ago
      > mm. if we are going by anecdata, my dad grew up in Europe in latter 20th century and they could not afford shoes or electricity. his siblings were put up for adoption. things have certainly changed, but that is intense material deprivation relative to latter 20th century US. Take a tour of rural Alabama or Appalachia today and you will see plenty of extreme poverty like that. We have a whole industry of NGOs and bin manufacturers [1] just to supply them with used clothes and shoes, massive subsidies to provide them with internet and electricity, and so on. Once you get out of the big cities, especially in "fly over" states, the poverty in the US can be downright staggering. [1] https://d2jald4mo73t7v.cloudfront.net/banners/_1200x630_crop_center-center_82_none/Bin-Photo.jpg https://d2jald4mo73t7v.cloudfront.net/banners/_1200x630_crop...
    - mpweiher 4y ago
      > they account for social service transfers They claim to account for them. Whether they actually did so in any way that makes sense is not documented. Given the credibility of the source... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also, their claim is "social benefits paid to households". That wording strongly suggests that they only took into account those social benefits that result in a payment, of money, from the government to the households, such as social security payments or unemployment benefits. Which would miss the vast majority of benefits, including all the ones I mentioned, because those benefits don't work that way.
andsoitis 4y ago
One should probably account for a margin of error as well as different measurement standards as well as timing differences, but by Europe and the US's own governments, Europe has double the poverty rate of the US: - Europe: 21.7% (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Living_conditions_in_Europe_-_poverty_and_social_exclusion https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...) - US: 11.6% (https://www.census.gov/newsroom/stories/poverty-awareness-month.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/stories/poverty-awareness-mo...) So a very very generous adjustment would put them at roughly similar poverty rates?
- spookie 4y ago
  USA's poverty threshold is significantly lower that Europe's. Comparing against median income, of course. So I would assume poverty rates are roughly similar, indeed.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    OECD poverty rate is 60% median income. Post-transfer median income is higher in the US than in Europe.

Link those numerous studies, sounds like BS

by cwkoss 4y ago

Link those numerous studies, sounds like BS

https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-europe https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-... Here's one analysis, but there are others. I would prefer a less conservative source.

owlglass 4y ago
When the Mises Institute publishes articles arguing that "drunk drivers cause accidents but so do sober drivers, and many drunk drivers cause no accidents at all," and therefore drunk driving should not be outlawed, it's hard to take this type of source seriously [1]. Note that the article above was published by the institute's founder. [1] https://mises.org/library/legalize-drunk-driving https://mises.org/library/legalize-drunk-driving
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  I hear what you are saying, although I would prefer an engagement on the merits of the specific points. That said, it is of course possible I overstated my case - the provenance of sources I am finding is not as strong as I would have expected.
  - julianlam 4y ago
    I feel that attacking the credibility of a source is fair game. I don't expect someone to refute every single point of an argument if the central thesis of the argument is erroneous.
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      How did we jump from attacking the credibility of a source to the central thesis of the argument being erroneous? I'm missing the part where that was shown.
  - owlglass 4y ago
    The thrust of the article [1] is that the income defined as "Poverty Level" (60% of disposable income), is higher in the US than in many European countries. This definition is based on disposable income, which does not account for spending on childcare, healthcare, housing, etc., many of which are heavily subsidized, or simply less expensive in these European countries that are being compared to the United States. [1] https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-europe https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-... Note: I appreciate your calm responses and engagement of the arguments. I concede that I should have included some refutation or concession based on the merits of the article themselves in my original reply. Edit: to add another source refuting the Mises thesis, stating that income inequality is highest in the US among G-7 countries (https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-...)
mpweiher 4y ago
That's not an analysis, that's a polemic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mises_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mises_Institute Even if they got the numbers right, which I doubt, they completely miss that US income has to pay for a lot more than in most of Europe, healthcare and education just as the most prominent examples, also lack of public transit etc. And of course anyone who has ever lived both in the US and in one or more European countries knows that this "analysis" is BS.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  if you read the article, you would see that they account for social service transfers. > And of course anyone who has ever lived both in the US and in one or more European countries knows that this "analysis" is BS. mm. if we are going by anecdata, my dad grew up in Europe in latter 20th century and they could not afford shoes or electricity. his siblings were put up for adoption. things have certainly changed, but that is intense material deprivation relative to latter 20th century US.
  - akiselev 4y ago
    > mm. if we are going by anecdata, my dad grew up in Europe in latter 20th century and they could not afford shoes or electricity. his siblings were put up for adoption. things have certainly changed, but that is intense material deprivation relative to latter 20th century US. Take a tour of rural Alabama or Appalachia today and you will see plenty of extreme poverty like that. We have a whole industry of NGOs and bin manufacturers [1] just to supply them with used clothes and shoes, massive subsidies to provide them with internet and electricity, and so on. Once you get out of the big cities, especially in "fly over" states, the poverty in the US can be downright staggering. [1] https://d2jald4mo73t7v.cloudfront.net/banners/_1200x630_crop_center-center_82_none/Bin-Photo.jpg https://d2jald4mo73t7v.cloudfront.net/banners/_1200x630_crop...
  - mpweiher 4y ago
    > they account for social service transfers They claim to account for them. Whether they actually did so in any way that makes sense is not documented. Given the credibility of the source... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also, their claim is "social benefits paid to households". That wording strongly suggests that they only took into account those social benefits that result in a payment, of money, from the government to the households, such as social security payments or unemployment benefits. Which would miss the vast majority of benefits, including all the ones I mentioned, because those benefits don't work that way.

andsoitis 4y ago

One should probably account for a margin of error as well as different measurement standards as well as timing differences, but by Europe and the US's own governments, Europe has double the poverty rate of the US: - Europe: 21.7% (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Living_conditions_in_Europe_-_poverty_and_social_exclusion https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...) - US: 11.6% (https://www.census.gov/newsroom/stories/poverty-awareness-month.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/stories/poverty-awareness-mo...) So a very very generous adjustment would put them at roughly similar poverty rates?

spookie 4y ago
USA's poverty threshold is significantly lower that Europe's. Comparing against median income, of course. So I would assume poverty rates are roughly similar, indeed.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  OECD poverty rate is 60% median income. Post-transfer median income is higher in the US than in Europe.