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> This, among other things of course, helped sentence millions of people to poor and deprived lives for centuries. Wealth inequality is much worse in the US th

> This, among other things of course, helped sentence millions of people to poor and deprived lives for centuries. Wealth inequality is much worse in the US than Europe, so relatively speaking, "poor" in EU is still much better than "poor" in the US.

monero-xmr 4y ago
Europe is a museum at this point. Tourism is their future. What industrial sectors are left are protected by huge government subsidies and tariffs, but as energy goes up in price and their economic dynamism continues to fall, their future is keeping the capital cities pretty for US and Chinese to visit and take pictures. A friend of mine is a Norwegian in the US. He told me all the ambitious people in Norway scheme to come to the US to make their fortune then retire back in Norway. Seems to be a very common pattern in Europe - make your money someplace without the excessive taxes and regulations, then travel back for the social safety net. Somehow they see this as moral and just which is quite perplexing.
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  No idea why you are downvoted other than downvoters having different political opinions that ignore facts.
  - thenaturalist 4y ago
    What is being ignored is basic macroeconomics such as the Theory of Comparative Advantage which states that the net benefit to countries is the specialization in the production of certain types of goods and subsequent trade with each other instead of each country trying to produce everything domestically. This is literally the system the US built since WWII and what globalization is all about after the Iron Curtain fell. Of course, the US being at the center of all this trade as the military guardian of naval trade routes and financier of specialized production capabilities all across the globe. It was and still is a smart as hell play. But that's exactly why anyone hitting on any one part of that web of trade as being irrelevant is so... unimaginative: The fact is that it's NOT a zero sum game, but a system where everyone benefits if trade happens. There are some EU companies that can produce tech in some domains without much or any competition in the US (or think of semiconductors of Taiwan) and the same is true for companies in the US. This is literally Econ 101.
- spookie 4y ago
  Such derogatory commentary is not adding any value to the conversation. I would refrain from dismissing Europe's industry, and cities with such a tone. The most perplexing part in all of this is the stance that this thread seems to commend. Even more so, given the societal unrest seen in the USA. Just baffling.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    > Even more so, given the societal unrest seen in the USA. Just baffling. To be fair, the social unrest of the US fueled by social media & advertising is now exporting itself to other countries - starting with the English-speaking ones (since the content can be reused as-is) but it's just a matter of time before it consumes other countries too.
    - spookie 4y ago
      Fair, and that's why I personally see a lot of value within these regulations.
- cycomanic 4y ago
  > Europe is a museum at this point. Tourism is their future. What industrial sectors are left are protected by huge government subsidies and tariffs, but as energy goes up in price and their economic dynamism continues to fall, their future is keeping the capital cities pretty for US and Chinese to visit and take pictures. German and swedish machining/mechanical engineering industry is essentially powerong the world's manufacturing. The biotech companies that gave us RNA vaccines are based in Europe. Where Europe is lagging is large supernational social media, software companies (although Spotify is Swedish). Hardly a museum. Also in comparison to the US or China the European market is quite open (the whole US defence is essentially a large government subsidy scheme). I find it interesting that free market maximalists are always pointing to FANG companies as examples how the US unregulated market is so much better. The irony is that these companies are so big that they are largely outside free market pressures and competition and I would argue are a good example how the US dropped the ball on regulating industry to keep competition alive.
- zirgs 4y ago
  But that only works if you're an athlete or someone who works in the tech industry. (And doesn't get sick) I doubt that anyone from the EU would like to migrate to the USA to do blue collar work.
ThunderSizzle 4y ago
Just because someone has more material items than you doesn't mean your life is worse or that you are poor. Poverty isn't about how little you have to others - its about being able to provide and sustain yourself and your family in society. As far as I understand it, poverty is much less now than 100 years ago.
- OliverGilan 4y ago
  Don’t know why this is being downvoted when it’s objectively true. Parent says wealth inequality is less in Europe therefore being “poor” is more desirable which makes no sense. The US could have higher inequality but that could just mean the richest are richer and the poor have the same standard of living. It could mean the poor are poorer in the US and the richest are even. It could mean the poor AND the rich are richer and better off than their EU counterparts. Just looking at inequality numbers doesn’t tell you anything about quality of life between the two continents…
  - mpweiher 4y ago
    Your analysis is wrong. Wealth inequality by itself is a problem, even if absolute levels are higher. This has been shown in study after study. This obviously doesn't mean that any wealth inequality dominates any absolute level (quick: everyone gets nothing!), and getting the balance right is tricky. But looking at the world happiness index, it is obvious that European countries are doing a pretty good job. https://dmerharyana.org/world-happiness-index/ https://dmerharyana.org/world-happiness-index/ 1 Finland 7.842 7.809 5,554,960 2 Denmark 7.62 7.646 5,834,950 3 Switzerland 7.571 7.56 8,773,637 4 Iceland 7.554 7.504 345,393 5 Netherlands 7.464 7.449 17,211,447 6 Norway 7.392 7.488 5,511,370 7 Sweden 7.363 7.353 10,218,971 8 Luxembourg 7.324 7.238 642,371 9 New Zealand 7.277 7.3 4,898,203 10 Austria 7.268 7.294 9,066,710 11 Australia 7.183 7.223 26,068,792 12 Israel 7.157 7.129 8,922,892 13 Germany 7.155 7.076 83,883,596 14 Canada 7.103 7.232 38,388,419 15 Ireland 7.085 7.129 5,020,199 16 Costa Rica 7.069 7.121 5,182,354 17 United Kingdom 7.064 7.165 68,497,907 18 Czech Republic 6.965 6.911 10,736,784 19 United States 6.951 6.94 334,805,269 20 Belgium 6.834 6.864 11,668,278 21 France 6.69 6.664 65,584,518
- 4y ago
whimsicalism 4y ago
Well, only if the total amount of wealth in the US is equivalent to the EU does your second statement follow. Obviously this is not the end alm be all of how good life is, but there are numerous studies indicating the average of goods and services provided to the poorest 20% in the US is higher than the amount of goods and services provided to the median EU citizen.
- cwkoss 4y ago
  Link those numerous studies, sounds like BS
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-europe https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-... Here's one analysis, but there are others. I would prefer a less conservative source.
    - owlglass 4y ago
      When the Mises Institute publishes articles arguing that "drunk drivers cause accidents but so do sober drivers, and many drunk drivers cause no accidents at all," and therefore drunk driving should not be outlawed, it's hard to take this type of source seriously [1]. Note that the article above was published by the institute's founder. [1] https://mises.org/library/legalize-drunk-driving https://mises.org/library/legalize-drunk-driving
      - whimsicalism 4y ago
        I hear what you are saying, although I would prefer an engagement on the merits of the specific points. That said, it is of course possible I overstated my case - the provenance of sources I am finding is not as strong as I would have expected.
        julianlam 4y ago
AdrianB1 4y ago
I disagree with the previous comments, but wealth inequality is not a measure of wealth (or poor-ness). In a way the previous comment has some truth in it: equalitarianism and socialism in Europe is keeping us poor; you cannot make all equal and rich, but you can make all equal and poor and this is the trend that I see. Background: born and grew in Romania, poor and socialist.
andsoitis 4y ago
> Wealth inequality is much worse in the US than Europe, so relatively speaking, "poor" in EU is still much better than "poor" in the US. Besides the questionable practice of lumping all of European countries into a single "Europe" block for debates like this, a single metric like wealth inequality, for instance, isn't useful to compare how countries or regimes are faring. For instance, by that metric, the following countries are better than Sweden: Belarus, Moldova, UAE, Algeria, Iraq. And places like Myanmar and Poland are better than Austria. source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-inequality-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-in...

monero-xmr 4y ago

Europe is a museum at this point. Tourism is their future. What industrial sectors are left are protected by huge government subsidies and tariffs, but as energy goes up in price and their economic dynamism continues to fall, their future is keeping the capital cities pretty for US and Chinese to visit and take pictures. A friend of mine is a Norwegian in the US. He told me all the ambitious people in Norway scheme to come to the US to make their fortune then retire back in Norway. Seems to be a very common pattern in Europe - make your money someplace without the excessive taxes and regulations, then travel back for the social safety net. Somehow they see this as moral and just which is quite perplexing.

AdrianB1 4y ago
No idea why you are downvoted other than downvoters having different political opinions that ignore facts.
- thenaturalist 4y ago
  What is being ignored is basic macroeconomics such as the Theory of Comparative Advantage which states that the net benefit to countries is the specialization in the production of certain types of goods and subsequent trade with each other instead of each country trying to produce everything domestically. This is literally the system the US built since WWII and what globalization is all about after the Iron Curtain fell. Of course, the US being at the center of all this trade as the military guardian of naval trade routes and financier of specialized production capabilities all across the globe. It was and still is a smart as hell play. But that's exactly why anyone hitting on any one part of that web of trade as being irrelevant is so... unimaginative: The fact is that it's NOT a zero sum game, but a system where everyone benefits if trade happens. There are some EU companies that can produce tech in some domains without much or any competition in the US (or think of semiconductors of Taiwan) and the same is true for companies in the US. This is literally Econ 101.
spookie 4y ago
Such derogatory commentary is not adding any value to the conversation. I would refrain from dismissing Europe's industry, and cities with such a tone. The most perplexing part in all of this is the stance that this thread seems to commend. Even more so, given the societal unrest seen in the USA. Just baffling.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  > Even more so, given the societal unrest seen in the USA. Just baffling. To be fair, the social unrest of the US fueled by social media & advertising is now exporting itself to other countries - starting with the English-speaking ones (since the content can be reused as-is) but it's just a matter of time before it consumes other countries too.
  - spookie 4y ago
    Fair, and that's why I personally see a lot of value within these regulations.
cycomanic 4y ago
> Europe is a museum at this point. Tourism is their future. What industrial sectors are left are protected by huge government subsidies and tariffs, but as energy goes up in price and their economic dynamism continues to fall, their future is keeping the capital cities pretty for US and Chinese to visit and take pictures. German and swedish machining/mechanical engineering industry is essentially powerong the world's manufacturing. The biotech companies that gave us RNA vaccines are based in Europe. Where Europe is lagging is large supernational social media, software companies (although Spotify is Swedish). Hardly a museum. Also in comparison to the US or China the European market is quite open (the whole US defence is essentially a large government subsidy scheme). I find it interesting that free market maximalists are always pointing to FANG companies as examples how the US unregulated market is so much better. The irony is that these companies are so big that they are largely outside free market pressures and competition and I would argue are a good example how the US dropped the ball on regulating industry to keep competition alive.
zirgs 4y ago
But that only works if you're an athlete or someone who works in the tech industry. (And doesn't get sick) I doubt that anyone from the EU would like to migrate to the USA to do blue collar work.

ThunderSizzle 4y ago

Just because someone has more material items than you doesn't mean your life is worse or that you are poor. Poverty isn't about how little you have to others - its about being able to provide and sustain yourself and your family in society. As far as I understand it, poverty is much less now than 100 years ago.

OliverGilan 4y ago
Don’t know why this is being downvoted when it’s objectively true. Parent says wealth inequality is less in Europe therefore being “poor” is more desirable which makes no sense. The US could have higher inequality but that could just mean the richest are richer and the poor have the same standard of living. It could mean the poor are poorer in the US and the richest are even. It could mean the poor AND the rich are richer and better off than their EU counterparts. Just looking at inequality numbers doesn’t tell you anything about quality of life between the two continents…
- mpweiher 4y ago
  Your analysis is wrong. Wealth inequality by itself is a problem, even if absolute levels are higher. This has been shown in study after study. This obviously doesn't mean that any wealth inequality dominates any absolute level (quick: everyone gets nothing!), and getting the balance right is tricky. But looking at the world happiness index, it is obvious that European countries are doing a pretty good job. https://dmerharyana.org/world-happiness-index/ https://dmerharyana.org/world-happiness-index/ 1 Finland 7.842 7.809 5,554,960 2 Denmark 7.62 7.646 5,834,950 3 Switzerland 7.571 7.56 8,773,637 4 Iceland 7.554 7.504 345,393 5 Netherlands 7.464 7.449 17,211,447 6 Norway 7.392 7.488 5,511,370 7 Sweden 7.363 7.353 10,218,971 8 Luxembourg 7.324 7.238 642,371 9 New Zealand 7.277 7.3 4,898,203 10 Austria 7.268 7.294 9,066,710 11 Australia 7.183 7.223 26,068,792 12 Israel 7.157 7.129 8,922,892 13 Germany 7.155 7.076 83,883,596 14 Canada 7.103 7.232 38,388,419 15 Ireland 7.085 7.129 5,020,199 16 Costa Rica 7.069 7.121 5,182,354 17 United Kingdom 7.064 7.165 68,497,907 18 Czech Republic 6.965 6.911 10,736,784 19 United States 6.951 6.94 334,805,269 20 Belgium 6.834 6.864 11,668,278 21 France 6.69 6.664 65,584,518
4y ago

whimsicalism 4y ago

Well, only if the total amount of wealth in the US is equivalent to the EU does your second statement follow. Obviously this is not the end alm be all of how good life is, but there are numerous studies indicating the average of goods and services provided to the poorest 20% in the US is higher than the amount of goods and services provided to the median EU citizen.

cwkoss 4y ago
Link those numerous studies, sounds like BS
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-europe https://mises.org/wire/poor-us-are-richer-middle-class-much-... Here's one analysis, but there are others. I would prefer a less conservative source.
  - owlglass 4y ago
    When the Mises Institute publishes articles arguing that "drunk drivers cause accidents but so do sober drivers, and many drunk drivers cause no accidents at all," and therefore drunk driving should not be outlawed, it's hard to take this type of source seriously [1]. Note that the article above was published by the institute's founder. [1] https://mises.org/library/legalize-drunk-driving https://mises.org/library/legalize-drunk-driving
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      I hear what you are saying, although I would prefer an engagement on the merits of the specific points. That said, it is of course possible I overstated my case - the provenance of sources I am finding is not as strong as I would have expected.
      - julianlam 4y ago

AdrianB1 4y ago

I disagree with the previous comments, but wealth inequality is not a measure of wealth (or poor-ness). In a way the previous comment has some truth in it: equalitarianism and socialism in Europe is keeping us poor; you cannot make all equal and rich, but you can make all equal and poor and this is the trend that I see. Background: born and grew in Romania, poor and socialist.

andsoitis 4y ago

> Wealth inequality is much worse in the US than Europe, so relatively speaking, "poor" in EU is still much better than "poor" in the US. Besides the questionable practice of lumping all of European countries into a single "Europe" block for debates like this, a single metric like wealth inequality, for instance, isn't useful to compare how countries or regimes are faring. For instance, by that metric, the following countries are better than Sweden: Belarus, Moldova, UAE, Algeria, Iraq. And places like Myanmar and Poland are better than Austria. source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-inequality-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-in...