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You're reaching into "cosmic justice" territory, which is a really bad place to be. It's not up to you or anyone else to fix the fact that the universe is inher

You're reaching into "cosmic justice" territory, which is a really bad place to be. It's not up to you or anyone else to fix the fact that the universe is inherently "unfair" (re: people with different passions, dispositions, and life situations), and certainly giving any entity sufficient power to attempt to solve for cosmic injustice is simply paving a road to tyranny with golden intentions.

jjj123 4y ago
Well right now there are existing entities with too much power, unions provide a second (less) powerful entity to balance the unchecked power of corporate leaders. It’s not about correcting a cosmic wrong, it’s about people wanting more power and using a tool to get it.
- PathOfEclipse 4y ago
  It really is, though, about correcting cosmic wrongs, because it is the world view you must first hold to believe something "unjust" is occurring when someone voluntarily bargains to work long hours for lower pay to be able to work their dream job. The next step is to pass legislation or push for judicial or executive action to try to "correct" for the injustice. The U.S. already has several very counter-productive pro-union labor laws it has accumulated over the years, and, under democrat presidents like Obama and Biden, the NLRB rules heavily in favor of unions: https://cei.org/blog/biden-says-he-wants-to-be-the-most-pro-union-president-in-the-history-of-the-united-states/ https://cei.org/blog/biden-says-he-wants-to-be-the-most-pro-... https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/12/adversarial-labor-laws-volkswagen-tennesee/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/12/adversarial-labor-law... https://www.dailywire.com/news/bidens-pick-for-labor-secretary-will-hurt-american-workers https://www.dailywire.com/news/bidens-pick-for-labor-secreta... "Biden has already publicly declared he supports changing federal policy so that “there is no Right to Work (laws) allowed anywhere in the country.” President-in-waiting Kamala Harris, likewise, was bitterly critical of the U.S. Supreme Court’s 2018 decision in Janus v. AFSCME, which outlawed mandatory union membership and payment of dues and/or so-called “agency fees” for government employees." These laws and actions don't make the world more just. On the contrary, they just add new injustices on top of the old ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzYgiOC9cj4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzYgiOC9cj4
triceratops 4y ago
Not at all. I just object to the toxic idea that professions should pay more or less based on how much much people like doing them. Justify salaries based on supply and demand, and value creation. "Your job is fun/cool/meaningful whereas my work makes me hate myself. Therefore, I deserve more money than you" is an awfully sour worldview. Working conditions or health and safety, are not up for debate no matter how amazing or terrible the job is.
- mbesto 4y ago
  > should pay more or less based on how much much people like doing them. Justify salaries based on supply and demand, and value creation. Reread your sentence and think real hard about it because you're saying the same thing, you're just conflating the premise. Gaming devs ARE based on supply and demand. As one of the other comments points out, the demand is outsized relative to other developer positions (e.g. SaaS dev). Simple supply and demand tells us if the demand is higher, then the price goes down. There ya go. > Therefore, I deserve more money than you No one is saying this.
  - triceratops 4y ago
    > you're saying the same thing, you're just conflating the premise I understand the effect of passion on supply. You might think I'm making a distinction without a difference but I disagree. We shouldn't normalize the idea that well-paying work has to be unpleasant. "It's called 'work' because it's not fun" is a harmful idea. > No one is saying this. Read the comment I originally responded to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34245152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34245152

jjj123 4y ago

Well right now there are existing entities with too much power, unions provide a second (less) powerful entity to balance the unchecked power of corporate leaders. It’s not about correcting a cosmic wrong, it’s about people wanting more power and using a tool to get it.

PathOfEclipse 4y ago
It really is, though, about correcting cosmic wrongs, because it is the world view you must first hold to believe something "unjust" is occurring when someone voluntarily bargains to work long hours for lower pay to be able to work their dream job. The next step is to pass legislation or push for judicial or executive action to try to "correct" for the injustice. The U.S. already has several very counter-productive pro-union labor laws it has accumulated over the years, and, under democrat presidents like Obama and Biden, the NLRB rules heavily in favor of unions: https://cei.org/blog/biden-says-he-wants-to-be-the-most-pro-union-president-in-the-history-of-the-united-states/ https://cei.org/blog/biden-says-he-wants-to-be-the-most-pro-... https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/12/adversarial-labor-laws-volkswagen-tennesee/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/12/adversarial-labor-law... https://www.dailywire.com/news/bidens-pick-for-labor-secretary-will-hurt-american-workers https://www.dailywire.com/news/bidens-pick-for-labor-secreta... "Biden has already publicly declared he supports changing federal policy so that “there is no Right to Work (laws) allowed anywhere in the country.” President-in-waiting Kamala Harris, likewise, was bitterly critical of the U.S. Supreme Court’s 2018 decision in Janus v. AFSCME, which outlawed mandatory union membership and payment of dues and/or so-called “agency fees” for government employees." These laws and actions don't make the world more just. On the contrary, they just add new injustices on top of the old ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzYgiOC9cj4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzYgiOC9cj4

triceratops 4y ago

Not at all. I just object to the toxic idea that professions should pay more or less based on how much much people like doing them. Justify salaries based on supply and demand, and value creation. "Your job is fun/cool/meaningful whereas my work makes me hate myself. Therefore, I deserve more money than you" is an awfully sour worldview. Working conditions or health and safety, are not up for debate no matter how amazing or terrible the job is.

mbesto 4y ago
> should pay more or less based on how much much people like doing them. Justify salaries based on supply and demand, and value creation. Reread your sentence and think real hard about it because you're saying the same thing, you're just conflating the premise. Gaming devs ARE based on supply and demand. As one of the other comments points out, the demand is outsized relative to other developer positions (e.g. SaaS dev). Simple supply and demand tells us if the demand is higher, then the price goes down. There ya go. > Therefore, I deserve more money than you No one is saying this.
- triceratops 4y ago
  > you're saying the same thing, you're just conflating the premise I understand the effect of passion on supply. You might think I'm making a distinction without a difference but I disagree. We shouldn't normalize the idea that well-paying work has to be unpleasant. "It's called 'work' because it's not fun" is a harmful idea. > No one is saying this. Read the comment I originally responded to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34245152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34245152