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> I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to trave Ah yes. Because it's only people with children who get sick, need

> I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to trave Ah yes. Because it's only people with children who get sick, need time off work, wage protection or pay for overtime, how could I forget. > Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay. Me, me, me, I, me, me. I wonder why overtime and crazy hours are then the norm across so many industries, and parts of industries (including IT).

phpisthebest 4y ago
>>Me, me, me, I, me, me. You say that like is a bad thing. One should always look out for their own interests. I am unclear why I should not be? >>I wonder why overtime and crazy hours are then the norm across so many industries Well I know many documented cases where it is not "required" but the employee feels it is. As a manager I have had to prevent employees from working too much even though I have told them many times it was not required or expected they still did. >>Because it's only people with children who get sick, need time off work, wage protection or pay for overtime Not at all, and people that need those things should negotiate them. I have negotiated more vacation time for incoming employees that had that at an important item, I treat each person as an individual and what is good for one employee may not be good for another employee. I prefer individualism
- ryandrake 4y ago
  If you're not interested in vacation or sick leave, a union could also help negotiate things that you do value, like [I'm admittedly guessing here] better 401(k) matching, after-tax 401(k) contributions, an ESOP plan, a profit-sharing plan, a more aggressive bonus structure, and so on. Companies are not just going to offer these kinds of things one-off to those few "Captains of Negotiation" and besides, workers shouldn't have to individually negotiate all these things. Yuck! Whenever a HN union discussion comes up, the arguments against are always "Unions by definition do these things A, B, and C, which I don't like, and don't do D, E, and F, which I would like." Why do we believe this? Is there some law that says all unions must be the same, do the same kinds of things and have the same good and bad attributes?
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Unions Negotiation based on majoritarian priorities, so if your desires match the majority of your co-workers then you will be represented in the room If they do not, your individual wants / needs will be the first on the chopping block in favor of wants / needs that match the majority of workers >>Companies are not just going to offer these kinds of things one-off to those few "Captains of Negotiation" Some things they will, some things they can't change by law (i.e the law requires all employees get the same ). Unions rarely move the needle much in my experience for the non-Negotiationable things, which are largely set by things way outside the employment Negotiation. Unions will often take credit for things but in reality it is just PR for the union it was going to happen with or with out the union. >Why do we believe this? Most commonly because of direct experience of this happening in real unions. I have worked in and around manufacturing plants my entire life, I have seen lots of shit from both sides >>besides, workers shouldn't have to individually negotiate all these things. Yuck! Why not? I dont understand this mentality where by things should just be given to people. I am continually asking for raises, promotions, etc. I advance because I ask to advance and negotiate my advancement. Expecting things to just happen for you is a terrible idea, employers are not your parents, they are not "providing" for you, you are trading your labor for money. lets not over complicate this relationship
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > I am unclear why I should not be? Because yours is a very narrow view that makes you blind to reality and externalities. You, and individual, don't exist in a vacuum. - when you go to your favorite restaurant or a burger joint, you don't want to be served by an underpaid overworked staff who has been battling pneumonia for two weeks - when you end up in the hospital, you don't want to be looked after by an underpaid overworked nurse - when you go to get your car fixed, you don't want the people fixing it to be sick, tired, or worrying about things like whether they have enough money to feed their kids - ditto for the ground crew servicing the plane you're flying on - ... the list is endless > As a manager I > I have negotiated more vacation time for > people that need those things should negotiate them. People can't really negotiate these things because they don't come into these negotiations from a position of power. You, as a manager, and the company you represent have all the power in these negotiations. You may view yourself as a good benevolent manager and you consider yourself lucky to have worked in companies that are good for some definition of good. This does not scale. You can't expect everyone to be lucky with their work and you can't expect everyone to have a manager who will magnanimously decide you're worthy of an extended vacation time. You will also not going to be young and healthy forever. > I prefer individualism No. You prefer to be an egoist in a society, and reap the benefits that society gives you
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >>when you go to your favorite restaurant or a burger joint, you don't want to be served by an underpaid overworked staff who has been battling pneumonia for two weeks No I want to be served by a Robot, and hope mcd;s leads the technology on automation technology to replace humans in the food service space >>- ... the list is endless and none of it is relevant and most of them do not work for unions or need unions to get good pay. so.... Union membership in the US have been DROPPING for decades for a reason. >>You, as a manager, and the company you represent have all the power in these negotiations. That is bullshit, every time this happen it has been the person we are looking to hire to bring up the things they want / need, All I have done is passed them to HR or my VP to see if the request could be accommodated or not >>This does not scale. You can't expect everyone to be lucky with their work and you can't expect everyone to have a manager It does scale but no I do not expect everyone to be "lucky" nor do I think you can eliminate all bad employers even under the EU level of authoritarianism you can not eliminate them all, I am a capitalist, I believe in capitalism and over all I believe markets are a batter solution to human scale problem that government. History proves me correct and you wrong, history will continue to prove me correct and you wrong

phpisthebest 4y ago

>>Me, me, me, I, me, me. You say that like is a bad thing. One should always look out for their own interests. I am unclear why I should not be? >>I wonder why overtime and crazy hours are then the norm across so many industries Well I know many documented cases where it is not "required" but the employee feels it is. As a manager I have had to prevent employees from working too much even though I have told them many times it was not required or expected they still did. >>Because it's only people with children who get sick, need time off work, wage protection or pay for overtime Not at all, and people that need those things should negotiate them. I have negotiated more vacation time for incoming employees that had that at an important item, I treat each person as an individual and what is good for one employee may not be good for another employee. I prefer individualism

ryandrake 4y ago
If you're not interested in vacation or sick leave, a union could also help negotiate things that you do value, like [I'm admittedly guessing here] better 401(k) matching, after-tax 401(k) contributions, an ESOP plan, a profit-sharing plan, a more aggressive bonus structure, and so on. Companies are not just going to offer these kinds of things one-off to those few "Captains of Negotiation" and besides, workers shouldn't have to individually negotiate all these things. Yuck! Whenever a HN union discussion comes up, the arguments against are always "Unions by definition do these things A, B, and C, which I don't like, and don't do D, E, and F, which I would like." Why do we believe this? Is there some law that says all unions must be the same, do the same kinds of things and have the same good and bad attributes?
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  Unions Negotiation based on majoritarian priorities, so if your desires match the majority of your co-workers then you will be represented in the room If they do not, your individual wants / needs will be the first on the chopping block in favor of wants / needs that match the majority of workers >>Companies are not just going to offer these kinds of things one-off to those few "Captains of Negotiation" Some things they will, some things they can't change by law (i.e the law requires all employees get the same ). Unions rarely move the needle much in my experience for the non-Negotiationable things, which are largely set by things way outside the employment Negotiation. Unions will often take credit for things but in reality it is just PR for the union it was going to happen with or with out the union. >Why do we believe this? Most commonly because of direct experience of this happening in real unions. I have worked in and around manufacturing plants my entire life, I have seen lots of shit from both sides >>besides, workers shouldn't have to individually negotiate all these things. Yuck! Why not? I dont understand this mentality where by things should just be given to people. I am continually asking for raises, promotions, etc. I advance because I ask to advance and negotiate my advancement. Expecting things to just happen for you is a terrible idea, employers are not your parents, they are not "providing" for you, you are trading your labor for money. lets not over complicate this relationship
dmitriid 4y ago
> I am unclear why I should not be? Because yours is a very narrow view that makes you blind to reality and externalities. You, and individual, don't exist in a vacuum. - when you go to your favorite restaurant or a burger joint, you don't want to be served by an underpaid overworked staff who has been battling pneumonia for two weeks - when you end up in the hospital, you don't want to be looked after by an underpaid overworked nurse - when you go to get your car fixed, you don't want the people fixing it to be sick, tired, or worrying about things like whether they have enough money to feed their kids - ditto for the ground crew servicing the plane you're flying on - ... the list is endless > As a manager I > I have negotiated more vacation time for > people that need those things should negotiate them. People can't really negotiate these things because they don't come into these negotiations from a position of power. You, as a manager, and the company you represent have all the power in these negotiations. You may view yourself as a good benevolent manager and you consider yourself lucky to have worked in companies that are good for some definition of good. This does not scale. You can't expect everyone to be lucky with their work and you can't expect everyone to have a manager who will magnanimously decide you're worthy of an extended vacation time. You will also not going to be young and healthy forever. > I prefer individualism No. You prefer to be an egoist in a society, and reap the benefits that society gives you
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>when you go to your favorite restaurant or a burger joint, you don't want to be served by an underpaid overworked staff who has been battling pneumonia for two weeks No I want to be served by a Robot, and hope mcd;s leads the technology on automation technology to replace humans in the food service space >>- ... the list is endless and none of it is relevant and most of them do not work for unions or need unions to get good pay. so.... Union membership in the US have been DROPPING for decades for a reason. >>You, as a manager, and the company you represent have all the power in these negotiations. That is bullshit, every time this happen it has been the person we are looking to hire to bring up the things they want / need, All I have done is passed them to HR or my VP to see if the request could be accommodated or not >>This does not scale. You can't expect everyone to be lucky with their work and you can't expect everyone to have a manager It does scale but no I do not expect everyone to be "lucky" nor do I think you can eliminate all bad employers even under the EU level of authoritarianism you can not eliminate them all, I am a capitalist, I believe in capitalism and over all I believe markets are a batter solution to human scale problem that government. History proves me correct and you wrong, history will continue to prove me correct and you wrong