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Without commenting on the morality those comments are correct. In the United States those who are incarcerated can be compelled to labor, per the 13th amendmen

Without commenting on the morality those comments are correct. In the United States those who are incarcerated can be compelled to labor, per the 13th amendment.

jMyles 4y ago
You might even say that's the whole purpose, historically and economically, of prisons in the first place.
- derefr 4y ago
  Under this view, presumably historical nations that made most of their money from trade, and didn't rely much on local production (the Netherlands, say; or Portugal; or Hong Kong under British rule), would see little-to-no local economic benefit from a marginal slave laborer — and so just wouldn't bother to establish any prisons / penal colonies. And also, likely would find it hard to sell these criminals on to other countries, given their known criminality / disobedient attitude. Is this accurate? If so, then what did such countries generally do with their criminals? Exile them?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > You might even say that's [ed: forced labor] the whole purpose, historically and economically, of prisons in the first place. Generally, no, that would not be accurate. OTOH, prisons were, before fairly recent history, generally of fairly limited use. Forced labir definitely, and as a direct replacement for chattel slavery, is the original reason for mass incarceration practices in the United States (though overtly, directly using it for that purpose has since fallen out of favor.) Different systems have different hiatories of penal practices and have used similarly described institutions for different purposes.
shkkmo 4y ago
You're reading too quickly and inferred the wrong meaning of "labor" here. The meaning here is "give birth to a child" not "engage in work" so the 13th amendment is completely irrelevant. Edit: It didn't help that "including" was probably an autocorrect from "inducing"
- richbell 4y ago
  > Edit: It didn't help that "including" was probably an autocorrect from "inducing" Damn the awful auto-correct on my phone! Thank you for pointing that out, it certainly made the intended meaning less obvious.
ant6n 4y ago
That the 13th amendment doesn’t extend abolition to prisoners doesn’t necessarily mean that no other rule or law could extend abolition to prisoners.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  18 usc § 1589, the general statutory forced labor ban in the US, does not exempt penal labor.
pc86 4y ago
"Inducing labor" is a medical procedure.
- notch656c 4y ago
  If you're unconscious or altered mental status a doctor can force you to do a medical procedure to overcome an emergency situation, like say a baby that needs to come out immediately. Whether you are a prisoner or not would be irrelevent. The doctor made this clear to me when I was unlawfully detained in Arizona while officers lied to the doctor telling them there was drugs in my GI tract. The doctor was chomping at the bit to find some clinical evidence of emergency so he could force me to do what he wanted.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  While this is not a 13th Amendment issue, and possibly not an issue under federal statute law banning slavery, servitude, forced labor, and human trafficking (which unlike 13A doesn’t have a penal exemption, so it may apply), it does violate medical consent rights which prisoners generally retain.
  - notch656c 4y ago
    >violate medical consent rights which prisoners generally retain. Do they? I complained to my state board when medical personnel performed "care" on me without my consent while I was detained (not arrested, not in prison/jail, and at the time no warrant/court order -- just 'detained' and dragged to hospital on a hunch by an officer that there might be drugs hidden up my ass). I was told by my state board the nurse/doctor can do what they want without my consent as they are basically acting as a police officer, and that my (extremely thorough, well documented, 100+ page) claim was denied -- not only that it was denied in triage and not even assigned to a detailed investigation. The medical records clearly listed I was alert and oriented and also expressed there was no clinical evidence of emergent situation, so this wasn't some normal civil exception. Considering the act in the article happened in Arizona and my own interaction with the state board is that it is legal for nurse/doctor to do as they wish without your consent if LEO is involved, it seems to be de facto legal. Not only that I got the bill and even though the "insurance" was listed as "ICE health care services" the debt in full was sold to debt collectors who are chasing me to this day.
jjk166 4y ago
The 13th amendment doesn't say anything about forcing prisoners to give birth
- notch656c 4y ago
  The context of slavery in the 13th amendment was the recent slavery in America. Could you not basically do what you wanted medically with a slave in the early 19th century? Forcing birth seems to fit within the limits of slavery.
  - SamReidHughes 4y ago
    The 13th amendment doesn't expand the right of the state to abuse prisoners.
    - krainboltgreene 4y ago
      Expand? No, retain? Yes, unless you've decided slavery isn't abuse.
  - jjk166 4y ago
    Actually there were limited restrictions on what could be done to slaves, but that's irrelevant since the 13th ammendment doesn't make prisoners slaves, it merely doesn't make involuntary labor as part of a punishment illegal.

Without commenting on the morality those comments are correct. In the United States those who are incarcerated can be compelled to labor, per the 13th amendment.

jMyles 4y ago

You might even say that's the whole purpose, historically and economically, of prisons in the first place.

derefr 4y ago
Under this view, presumably historical nations that made most of their money from trade, and didn't rely much on local production (the Netherlands, say; or Portugal; or Hong Kong under British rule), would see little-to-no local economic benefit from a marginal slave laborer — and so just wouldn't bother to establish any prisons / penal colonies. And also, likely would find it hard to sell these criminals on to other countries, given their known criminality / disobedient attitude. Is this accurate? If so, then what did such countries generally do with their criminals? Exile them?
dragonwriter 4y ago
> You might even say that's [ed: forced labor] the whole purpose, historically and economically, of prisons in the first place. Generally, no, that would not be accurate. OTOH, prisons were, before fairly recent history, generally of fairly limited use. Forced labir definitely, and as a direct replacement for chattel slavery, is the original reason for mass incarceration practices in the United States (though overtly, directly using it for that purpose has since fallen out of favor.) Different systems have different hiatories of penal practices and have used similarly described institutions for different purposes.

shkkmo 4y ago

You're reading too quickly and inferred the wrong meaning of "labor" here. The meaning here is "give birth to a child" not "engage in work" so the 13th amendment is completely irrelevant. Edit: It didn't help that "including" was probably an autocorrect from "inducing"

richbell 4y ago
> Edit: It didn't help that "including" was probably an autocorrect from "inducing" Damn the awful auto-correct on my phone! Thank you for pointing that out, it certainly made the intended meaning less obvious.

ant6n 4y ago

That the 13th amendment doesn’t extend abolition to prisoners doesn’t necessarily mean that no other rule or law could extend abolition to prisoners.

dragonwriter 4y ago
18 usc § 1589, the general statutory forced labor ban in the US, does not exempt penal labor.

pc86 4y ago

"Inducing labor" is a medical procedure.

notch656c 4y ago
If you're unconscious or altered mental status a doctor can force you to do a medical procedure to overcome an emergency situation, like say a baby that needs to come out immediately. Whether you are a prisoner or not would be irrelevent. The doctor made this clear to me when I was unlawfully detained in Arizona while officers lied to the doctor telling them there was drugs in my GI tract. The doctor was chomping at the bit to find some clinical evidence of emergency so he could force me to do what he wanted.
dragonwriter 4y ago
While this is not a 13th Amendment issue, and possibly not an issue under federal statute law banning slavery, servitude, forced labor, and human trafficking (which unlike 13A doesn’t have a penal exemption, so it may apply), it does violate medical consent rights which prisoners generally retain.
- notch656c 4y ago
  >violate medical consent rights which prisoners generally retain. Do they? I complained to my state board when medical personnel performed "care" on me without my consent while I was detained (not arrested, not in prison/jail, and at the time no warrant/court order -- just 'detained' and dragged to hospital on a hunch by an officer that there might be drugs hidden up my ass). I was told by my state board the nurse/doctor can do what they want without my consent as they are basically acting as a police officer, and that my (extremely thorough, well documented, 100+ page) claim was denied -- not only that it was denied in triage and not even assigned to a detailed investigation. The medical records clearly listed I was alert and oriented and also expressed there was no clinical evidence of emergent situation, so this wasn't some normal civil exception. Considering the act in the article happened in Arizona and my own interaction with the state board is that it is legal for nurse/doctor to do as they wish without your consent if LEO is involved, it seems to be de facto legal. Not only that I got the bill and even though the "insurance" was listed as "ICE health care services" the debt in full was sold to debt collectors who are chasing me to this day.

jjk166 4y ago

The 13th amendment doesn't say anything about forcing prisoners to give birth

notch656c 4y ago
The context of slavery in the 13th amendment was the recent slavery in America. Could you not basically do what you wanted medically with a slave in the early 19th century? Forcing birth seems to fit within the limits of slavery.
- SamReidHughes 4y ago
  The 13th amendment doesn't expand the right of the state to abuse prisoners.
  - krainboltgreene 4y ago
    Expand? No, retain? Yes, unless you've decided slavery isn't abuse.
- jjk166 4y ago
  Actually there were limited restrictions on what could be done to slaves, but that's irrelevant since the 13th ammendment doesn't make prisoners slaves, it merely doesn't make involuntary labor as part of a punishment illegal.