4 ms·

If I were applying to YC again I would be tempted to pitch a private / non-profit prison. I abhor the idea of private prisons but it seems like the only way in

If I were applying to YC again I would be tempted to pitch a private / non-profit prison. I abhor the idea of private prisons but it seems like the only way in our modern society to build a prototype of one that actually treats incarcerated people like human beings.

jmyeet 4y ago
I understand this desire but charity alone cannot (let alone the profit motive that would seep into any venture-backed effort) cannot solve a systemic problem. The roots of the modern US prison system go back to slavery economics [1]. The Lousianna State Penitentiary (known as "Angola") is quite literally a cotton-picking plantation. Poverty and the desire for forced (ie cheap) labor are the driving forces here. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4kI2h3iotA&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4kI2h3iotA&t=3s
- rgrieselhuber 4y ago
  Agreed. As well as a heavy fascist / anti-human bent toward the torturing of consciousness.
  - kingkawn 4y ago
    good ol US o A
- Retric 4y ago
  A non profit prison should in theory be able to out compete for profit prisons because they don’t need to bake profits into their bids. They could then use that surplus to have more humane conditions. However that argument applies to other industries, but charities haven’t taken over the world because the profit motive is surprisingly effective at motivating both people and organizations.
  - Tostino 4y ago
    You are entirely ignoring the revenue generating portion of slave labor in this analysis.
    - Retric 4y ago
      No, if a private prison is paying a prisoner 0 to X$/hour the the charity might only be able to pay that same person 1$/hour more because the surplus for that labor is finite. However, that’s still an improvement.
  - mannykannot 4y ago
    For-profit prison systems effectively split the profit between the company and the government, by bidding lower than an ethical provider could (even if we assume no backroom deals, which is a dubious assumption to make.)
    - Retric 4y ago
      Splitting the profit between the prisoners and government is arguably more ethical than splitting it with a private company and the government while shafting prisoners. It’s an interesting ethical question imo. Charities don’t operate third world sweatshops, but because they don’t the conditions are worse in third world sweatshops. So, if a charity wanted to improve worker confirms in the third world should they run a sweatshop?
      - mannykannot 4y ago
        Sure, in general, but when the profit comes from shafting the prisoners to the point of diminishing returns, I feel there's little room for that argument. The sweat-shop example seems somewhat quantitatively different, as treating the workers better adds value for a sufficient number of consumers.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Your prison could play the long game... Have better conditions, and educate the prisoners better, reducing re-conviction rates and getting ex-prisoners back into work. Then, lobby for the laws to be changed. Get prisons to be paid as a cut of future tax revenues from ex convicts. Let them bid per prisoner as what percentage of future tax revenue they want to house the prisoner. In such a system, your prison would earn far more revenue and be far more profitable than 'worse' prisons.
  - rgrieselhuber 4y ago
    Yes, this is basically where my head is at. First, solve the immediate problem of improving conditions wherever possible. Then work on the harder problem of changing the environment that created it.
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    Nice thought, but it still incentivizes putting people behind bars.
    - londons_explore 4y ago
      If the scheme works really well, people might actually want to be put behind bars, because then they'll get a free education, given employment, a lifelong mentor, etc. And the 'bars' might look more like university accommodation than a prison. Obviously legislators would probably want to step in before it gets to that stage.
      - rhn_mk1 4y ago
        The problem with that is that it's paid with the loss of freedom (otherwise you have to come up with a separate rehabilitation system for those who are dangerous and solve the same problem all over again). And the loss of freedom is the main problem of things like debt-fueled servitude, which is considered undesireable in the West.
- BowBun 4y ago
  Historically, most countries go through these cycles where we depend on immigrant workers for lower level work. We definitely profited off of slavery as well as Chinese, Hispanic, and Irish (to name a few) workers to build the USA. The same is true in Asia where they depend on Indian, Pakistani, Filipino, etc. people for work. The same is true in Europe where we depend on north Africans, eastern Europeans, etc. As these cycles shift and those people become less welcome due to populism, immigration policies, and those people simply staying to work in their home countries, I worry that we'll lean even more heavily into systems like the prison system to provide workers for countries. In the absence of better pay or full automation, I'm not sure exactly who is supposed to fill those roles besides prisoners. It's a terrifying dystopian thought that your main motivator to not break the law in the future is to not be stuck in indentured servitude for the rest of your life.
dangerwill 4y ago
Not to be snarky, but many European countries have publicly funded and administered prisons that treat inmates much more humanely than US prisons, especially Norway and Finland. The problem is that the US's culture loves punishment, US tax payers like to see cost per inmate be as low as possible, and in a surprising number of rural counties the local prison is a major employer. So I don't think that making private prisons non-profit would change much of any of that, and also it's not "our modern society", it's the US's modern society.
- rgrieselhuber 4y ago
  Yes, very much agreed. It's an entirely different mindset.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Norway also has 1/10th the per capita prison population and spends 5x more per inmate.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    I wonder if the economic gains of having 10x fewer citizens doing menial prison labour makes up for that cost.
idiotsecant 4y ago
Any prison that you made emphasizing rehabilitation instead of punishment would immediately get picked up by the news media because it's an amazing story for generating clicks. The prison would be presented to readers as the 'country club' that's 'soft on criminals' that 'YOU (underlined and bolded in the obnoxious way they do) are paying for!!!' The public doesn't want justice - they want an underclass to feel superior to.
- jccalhoun 4y ago
  Yep. The minute one of the prisoners reoffended, the conservatives would use it to force the politician who supported it out of office and the jail shut down even if the rate of reoffense was infinitely better than for a traditional prison.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  That's being optimistic, you'd probably be the target of an underhanded mudslinging campaign that's secretly funded and directed by shareholders of the for-profit system. You know, things like "grass-roots" advocacy groups popping up out of nowhere in opposition, FOX news take downs of your employees and managers, endless trouble with permits and funding while certain politicians get sweet campaign donations on the side.

jmyeet 4y ago

I understand this desire but charity alone cannot (let alone the profit motive that would seep into any venture-backed effort) cannot solve a systemic problem. The roots of the modern US prison system go back to slavery economics [1]. The Lousianna State Penitentiary (known as "Angola") is quite literally a cotton-picking plantation. Poverty and the desire for forced (ie cheap) labor are the driving forces here. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4kI2h3iotA&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4kI2h3iotA&t=3s

rgrieselhuber 4y ago
Agreed. As well as a heavy fascist / anti-human bent toward the torturing of consciousness.
- kingkawn 4y ago
  good ol US o A
Retric 4y ago
A non profit prison should in theory be able to out compete for profit prisons because they don’t need to bake profits into their bids. They could then use that surplus to have more humane conditions. However that argument applies to other industries, but charities haven’t taken over the world because the profit motive is surprisingly effective at motivating both people and organizations.
- Tostino 4y ago
  You are entirely ignoring the revenue generating portion of slave labor in this analysis.
  - Retric 4y ago
    No, if a private prison is paying a prisoner 0 to X$/hour the the charity might only be able to pay that same person 1$/hour more because the surplus for that labor is finite. However, that’s still an improvement.
- mannykannot 4y ago
  For-profit prison systems effectively split the profit between the company and the government, by bidding lower than an ethical provider could (even if we assume no backroom deals, which is a dubious assumption to make.)
  - Retric 4y ago
    Splitting the profit between the prisoners and government is arguably more ethical than splitting it with a private company and the government while shafting prisoners. It’s an interesting ethical question imo. Charities don’t operate third world sweatshops, but because they don’t the conditions are worse in third world sweatshops. So, if a charity wanted to improve worker confirms in the third world should they run a sweatshop?
    - mannykannot 4y ago
      Sure, in general, but when the profit comes from shafting the prisoners to the point of diminishing returns, I feel there's little room for that argument. The sweat-shop example seems somewhat quantitatively different, as treating the workers better adds value for a sufficient number of consumers.
londons_explore 4y ago
Your prison could play the long game... Have better conditions, and educate the prisoners better, reducing re-conviction rates and getting ex-prisoners back into work. Then, lobby for the laws to be changed. Get prisons to be paid as a cut of future tax revenues from ex convicts. Let them bid per prisoner as what percentage of future tax revenue they want to house the prisoner. In such a system, your prison would earn far more revenue and be far more profitable than 'worse' prisons.
- rgrieselhuber 4y ago
  Yes, this is basically where my head is at. First, solve the immediate problem of improving conditions wherever possible. Then work on the harder problem of changing the environment that created it.
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  Nice thought, but it still incentivizes putting people behind bars.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    If the scheme works really well, people might actually want to be put behind bars, because then they'll get a free education, given employment, a lifelong mentor, etc. And the 'bars' might look more like university accommodation than a prison. Obviously legislators would probably want to step in before it gets to that stage.
    - rhn_mk1 4y ago
      The problem with that is that it's paid with the loss of freedom (otherwise you have to come up with a separate rehabilitation system for those who are dangerous and solve the same problem all over again). And the loss of freedom is the main problem of things like debt-fueled servitude, which is considered undesireable in the West.
BowBun 4y ago
Historically, most countries go through these cycles where we depend on immigrant workers for lower level work. We definitely profited off of slavery as well as Chinese, Hispanic, and Irish (to name a few) workers to build the USA. The same is true in Asia where they depend on Indian, Pakistani, Filipino, etc. people for work. The same is true in Europe where we depend on north Africans, eastern Europeans, etc. As these cycles shift and those people become less welcome due to populism, immigration policies, and those people simply staying to work in their home countries, I worry that we'll lean even more heavily into systems like the prison system to provide workers for countries. In the absence of better pay or full automation, I'm not sure exactly who is supposed to fill those roles besides prisoners. It's a terrifying dystopian thought that your main motivator to not break the law in the future is to not be stuck in indentured servitude for the rest of your life.

dangerwill 4y ago

Not to be snarky, but many European countries have publicly funded and administered prisons that treat inmates much more humanely than US prisons, especially Norway and Finland. The problem is that the US's culture loves punishment, US tax payers like to see cost per inmate be as low as possible, and in a surprising number of rural counties the local prison is a major employer. So I don't think that making private prisons non-profit would change much of any of that, and also it's not "our modern society", it's the US's modern society.

rgrieselhuber 4y ago
Yes, very much agreed. It's an entirely different mindset.
vorpalhex 4y ago
Norway also has 1/10th the per capita prison population and spends 5x more per inmate.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  I wonder if the economic gains of having 10x fewer citizens doing menial prison labour makes up for that cost.

idiotsecant 4y ago

Any prison that you made emphasizing rehabilitation instead of punishment would immediately get picked up by the news media because it's an amazing story for generating clicks. The prison would be presented to readers as the 'country club' that's 'soft on criminals' that 'YOU (underlined and bolded in the obnoxious way they do) are paying for!!!' The public doesn't want justice - they want an underclass to feel superior to.

jccalhoun 4y ago
Yep. The minute one of the prisoners reoffended, the conservatives would use it to force the politician who supported it out of office and the jail shut down even if the rate of reoffense was infinitely better than for a traditional prison.
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
That's being optimistic, you'd probably be the target of an underhanded mudslinging campaign that's secretly funded and directed by shareholders of the for-profit system. You know, things like "grass-roots" advocacy groups popping up out of nowhere in opposition, FOX news take downs of your employees and managers, endless trouble with permits and funding while certain politicians get sweet campaign donations on the side.