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> If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Because wage is all you care for. How about: maternity leave

> If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Because wage is all you care for. How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? And not just for software engineers, but for everyone? > that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. > But even European ones, from the data (I’ve never experienced one), doesn’t seem effective. If you only limit your data to only wages, then sure, that data will support whatever narrative you want.

phpisthebest 4y ago
>>Because wage is all you care for. yes.. >>How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to travel so none of that matters to me. I am forced by my employer to take the vacation I do get, and my "vacation" is me sitting around my house doing chores or gaming which I do with out vacation time as well That is the problem with Unions, they often fight for things I do not care about or need. Majoritarianism is always bad for the smallest minority... the individual >>That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Thank goodness you only need a majority of votes to unionize.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    History shows the result of that is often the highly productive staff exits for greener opportunities where they are not penalized for doing more than the minimum not to get fired, and over all the entire operation suffers leading to outsourcing or closing of facilities.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      We wish them well! Are those greener pastures the vast majority of startups that fail? Or enormous agile, nimble enterprises I’ve heard so much about (he said with a hint of sarcasm)? Lying to others is one thing, but don’t lie to yourself. A vocal minority is best served by the status quo, and they’ll do fine as consultants. Unions to protect the majority (and the evidence very clearly demonstrates these workers need protection from management and capital), with opportunity for those who would rather not be protected. The situation is not binary; it is a spectrum.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        Neither, I normally work for privately held companies with between 200-1000 employees and revenues between 500million and 1 billion per year That seems to be the sweet spot to not get abused, either by management nor unions. Startups suck, Huge enterprises suck
        dmitriid 4y ago
        > That seems to be the sweet spot to not get abused, either by management nor unions. Startups suck, Huge enterprises suck In Europe I've worked for startups, I've worked for corporations. Everywhere I had the same situation: sick pay, vacations etc. It's amazing that you assume that "getting abused" is the norm and you have to find yourself in some sweet spot to escape that.
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        To me, working anyone in the EU, under the EU laws would suck, I would be "abused" by the government instead of corporations in that case and would not no avenue of escape at all Your assimilation of government abuse as not being abused does not magically change that
        dmitriid 4y ago
        Ah yes. The bad horrible no good government abuse of vacation, sick pay, overtime pay...
- cjbgkagh 4y ago
  Forced vacations are usually to uncover fraud and maybe key man risk. Lots of places without unions do this.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    Forced vacations are also a way to ensure that the employee doesn't burn out
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to trave Ah yes. Because it's only people with children who get sick, need time off work, wage protection or pay for overtime, how could I forget. > Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay. Me, me, me, I, me, me. I wonder why overtime and crazy hours are then the norm across so many industries, and parts of industries (including IT).
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >>Me, me, me, I, me, me. You say that like is a bad thing. One should always look out for their own interests. I am unclear why I should not be? >>I wonder why overtime and crazy hours are then the norm across so many industries Well I know many documented cases where it is not "required" but the employee feels it is. As a manager I have had to prevent employees from working too much even though I have told them many times it was not required or expected they still did. >>Because it's only people with children who get sick, need time off work, wage protection or pay for overtime Not at all, and people that need those things should negotiate them. I have negotiated more vacation time for incoming employees that had that at an important item, I treat each person as an individual and what is good for one employee may not be good for another employee. I prefer individualism
    - ryandrake 4y ago
      If you're not interested in vacation or sick leave, a union could also help negotiate things that you do value, like [I'm admittedly guessing here] better 401(k) matching, after-tax 401(k) contributions, an ESOP plan, a profit-sharing plan, a more aggressive bonus structure, and so on. Companies are not just going to offer these kinds of things one-off to those few "Captains of Negotiation" and besides, workers shouldn't have to individually negotiate all these things. Yuck! Whenever a HN union discussion comes up, the arguments against are always "Unions by definition do these things A, B, and C, which I don't like, and don't do D, E, and F, which I would like." Why do we believe this? Is there some law that says all unions must be the same, do the same kinds of things and have the same good and bad attributes?
- bigbillheck 4y ago
  > I rarely get sick You have rarely gotten sick thus far in your life.

phpisthebest 4y ago

>>Because wage is all you care for. yes.. >>How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to travel so none of that matters to me. I am forced by my employer to take the vacation I do get, and my "vacation" is me sitting around my house doing chores or gaming which I do with out vacation time as well That is the problem with Unions, they often fight for things I do not care about or need. Majoritarianism is always bad for the smallest minority... the individual >>That also means that I cannot be forced to work overtime with no overtime pay. Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Thank goodness you only need a majority of votes to unionize.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  History shows the result of that is often the highly productive staff exits for greener opportunities where they are not penalized for doing more than the minimum not to get fired, and over all the entire operation suffers leading to outsourcing or closing of facilities.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    We wish them well! Are those greener pastures the vast majority of startups that fail? Or enormous agile, nimble enterprises I’ve heard so much about (he said with a hint of sarcasm)? Lying to others is one thing, but don’t lie to yourself. A vocal minority is best served by the status quo, and they’ll do fine as consultants. Unions to protect the majority (and the evidence very clearly demonstrates these workers need protection from management and capital), with opportunity for those who would rather not be protected. The situation is not binary; it is a spectrum.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Neither, I normally work for privately held companies with between 200-1000 employees and revenues between 500million and 1 billion per year That seems to be the sweet spot to not get abused, either by management nor unions. Startups suck, Huge enterprises suck
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        > That seems to be the sweet spot to not get abused, either by management nor unions. Startups suck, Huge enterprises suck In Europe I've worked for startups, I've worked for corporations. Everywhere I had the same situation: sick pay, vacations etc. It's amazing that you assume that "getting abused" is the norm and you have to find yourself in some sweet spot to escape that.
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        To me, working anyone in the EU, under the EU laws would suck, I would be "abused" by the government instead of corporations in that case and would not no avenue of escape at all Your assimilation of government abuse as not being abused does not magically change that
        dmitriid 4y ago
        Ah yes. The bad horrible no good government abuse of vacation, sick pay, overtime pay...
cjbgkagh 4y ago
Forced vacations are usually to uncover fraud and maybe key man risk. Lots of places without unions do this.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  Forced vacations are also a way to ensure that the employee doesn't burn out
dmitriid 4y ago
> I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to trave Ah yes. Because it's only people with children who get sick, need time off work, wage protection or pay for overtime, how could I forget. > Has a highly compensated employee that knows their value to the organizations I work for I have never been forced for work overtime with no pay. Me, me, me, I, me, me. I wonder why overtime and crazy hours are then the norm across so many industries, and parts of industries (including IT).
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>Me, me, me, I, me, me. You say that like is a bad thing. One should always look out for their own interests. I am unclear why I should not be? >>I wonder why overtime and crazy hours are then the norm across so many industries Well I know many documented cases where it is not "required" but the employee feels it is. As a manager I have had to prevent employees from working too much even though I have told them many times it was not required or expected they still did. >>Because it's only people with children who get sick, need time off work, wage protection or pay for overtime Not at all, and people that need those things should negotiate them. I have negotiated more vacation time for incoming employees that had that at an important item, I treat each person as an individual and what is good for one employee may not be good for another employee. I prefer individualism
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    If you're not interested in vacation or sick leave, a union could also help negotiate things that you do value, like [I'm admittedly guessing here] better 401(k) matching, after-tax 401(k) contributions, an ESOP plan, a profit-sharing plan, a more aggressive bonus structure, and so on. Companies are not just going to offer these kinds of things one-off to those few "Captains of Negotiation" and besides, workers shouldn't have to individually negotiate all these things. Yuck! Whenever a HN union discussion comes up, the arguments against are always "Unions by definition do these things A, B, and C, which I don't like, and don't do D, E, and F, which I would like." Why do we believe this? Is there some law that says all unions must be the same, do the same kinds of things and have the same good and bad attributes?
bigbillheck 4y ago
> I rarely get sick You have rarely gotten sick thus far in your life.