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Are you referring to some specific study on uneducated subsistence farmers? > or descendants of historically-recent enslavement, in the African diaspora I pos

Are you referring to some specific study on uneducated subsistence farmers? > or descendants of historically-recent enslavement, in the African diaspora I posit that there is a perfect absence of evidence for "historically-recent enslavement" being a casual factor in present differences on tests, or in what they are meant to be predictive of. Controlling for income and parenting doesn't eliminate the gap. Explanations based on lead poisoning in minority environments used to be popular until lead exposure converged – then they got ditched. So it goes. In fact, no proposed mechanism withstands the slightest scrutiny, it's ignorance and/or special pleading all the way down. > southern India and China, whose cultural milieus have developed for many centuries in highly urbanized, complex societies How is does this nebulous "cultural mileu" higher classes were exposed to affect the IQ or SAT score of a descendant of an average uneducated malnourished peasant from southern China (and of Great Leap Forward/Cultural Revolution survivors)? Do you have any concrete mechanism in mind that is as robust to controls as the genetic hypothesis? For example, adoptees of Korean descent in Sweden have significantly higher IQs than non-Korean adoptees and even non-adopted children [1] – how is that explained, social expectations from Asian-looking people? This is just one fact among thousands, and together they require implausible power of racist attitudes to be explained – greater, and bizarrely far more precise, than for any social intervention known. And unchanging in magnitude despite increases in legal and social equality. Cultural milieus, redlining, Pygmalion effect, epigenetic trauma etc. must all act in concert to perfectly imitate the appearance of between-group heritability just working the same way as within-group heritability. And when another one of those factors fails to replicate, others must pick up the slack. Crucially, were the Chinese immigrants low-performing, would it confuse you – or would you have been able to spin a just-so story about recent environmental deprivation that's no less convincing than in the case of Africans? Certainly works with Indians, who, as a whole, do not score highly on tests – cultural milieu or not. ...I'd rather we skip this song and dance – no amount of links and arguments is likely to convince you, since you can just suspect the ideology of their authors that much stronger. I am pretty sure that you are not willing to entertain the thought that this complex topic has been studied by smart and unbiased people, with conclusions favoring the genetic determinist side, e.g. [2], and that your ad hoc "reasonableness test" is insufficient to make a call. What I am more interested in is a sociological question: why do you think it is adequate? Obviously you are aware that you have not inspected the topic in depth. 1. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18307828/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18307828/ 2. https://cremieux.medium.com/resolute-ignorance-on-race-and-iq-courtesy-of-kevin-drum-d9cbf930f7db https://cremieux.medium.com/resolute-ignorance-on-race-and-i...

zozbot234 4y ago
> For example, adoptees of Korean descent in Sweden have significantly higher IQs than non-Korean adoptees and even non-adopted children It's one thing to find measurable differentials somewhere, another to pretend that such differences are enough to explain even a worthwhile fraction of the achievement gap. The average kid of Korean descent would have significantly higher achievement in Sweden or South Korea than North Korea, and that for entirely non-racial reasons. And most lowest-developed countries are, sadly, more similar to North Korea than Sweden.
- airgapstopgap 4y ago
  This is a matter of one's priors. One could just as easily say that it's one thing to find a clearly environmentally mediated difference in some extreme situation (i.e. between North and South Koreans), another to pretend that such differences are enough to explain even a worthwhile fraction of the achievement gap – especially between different ancestries within the same polity, in the absence of any overt discrimination or substantial evidence for covert one. It'd be a better argument, even. Despite severe global sanctions and a ridiculous political and economic system, there isn't that much of a difference between North and South Koreans. Denizens of DPRK still maintain an orderly society with universal literacy and advanced domestic technology, and overall demonstrate cognitive performance on at least European level – with like 5% of GPP per capita that South Koreans have, on par with poor African states. Which are, indeed, among the lowest-developed, and frequently fail to maintain basic infrastructure – despite external support. I do note that you have ignored my meta-level question, though, and that says enough.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    And what if the actual meta-level question is whether those psychometrics tests are actually relevant in the modern day? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29798887 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29798887 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34243512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34243512

zozbot234 4y ago

> For example, adoptees of Korean descent in Sweden have significantly higher IQs than non-Korean adoptees and even non-adopted children It's one thing to find measurable differentials somewhere, another to pretend that such differences are enough to explain even a worthwhile fraction of the achievement gap. The average kid of Korean descent would have significantly higher achievement in Sweden or South Korea than North Korea, and that for entirely non-racial reasons. And most lowest-developed countries are, sadly, more similar to North Korea than Sweden.

airgapstopgap 4y ago
This is a matter of one's priors. One could just as easily say that it's one thing to find a clearly environmentally mediated difference in some extreme situation (i.e. between North and South Koreans), another to pretend that such differences are enough to explain even a worthwhile fraction of the achievement gap – especially between different ancestries within the same polity, in the absence of any overt discrimination or substantial evidence for covert one. It'd be a better argument, even. Despite severe global sanctions and a ridiculous political and economic system, there isn't that much of a difference between North and South Koreans. Denizens of DPRK still maintain an orderly society with universal literacy and advanced domestic technology, and overall demonstrate cognitive performance on at least European level – with like 5% of GPP per capita that South Koreans have, on par with poor African states. Which are, indeed, among the lowest-developed, and frequently fail to maintain basic infrastructure – despite external support. I do note that you have ignored my meta-level question, though, and that says enough.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  And what if the actual meta-level question is whether those psychometrics tests are actually relevant in the modern day? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29798887 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29798887 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34243512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34243512