3 ms·

What else are they going to say in public? "Our plan is to engage in union-busting as much as we can legally get away with"? And what one company said is then

by gyulai 4y ago

What else are they going to say in public? "Our plan is to engage in union-busting as much as we can legally get away with"? And what one company said is then compared to what another company actually did? Come on! This statement doesn't make MS an outlier, it's simply devoid of information content.

impish9208 4y ago
Well, the president of CWA (the union) also praises them: > “Microsoft has lived up to its commitment to its workers and let them decide for themselves whether they want a union,” CWA President Chris Shelton said. “Other videogame and tech giants have made a conscious choice to attack, undermine, and demoralize their own employees when they join together to form a union.”
- gyulai 4y ago
  ...there's an obvious zero-sum game involved when unions negotiate with companies. Think of other zero-sum games like negotiating a price. Have you ever asked a salesperson about a price and heard them say "..the highest I can possibly extract from you"? No? Have you ever heard a salesperson say "I'll get you a great deal!" Yes? Does that convince you that most salespeople are really big on altruism?
coldpie 4y ago
> What else are they going to say in public? Microsoft recognizing the union instead of fighting tooth & nail to destroy it is genuinely novel behavior. They could refuse to recognize the union, or sue to invalidate the ballot, as many, many companies do: "Activision Blizzard did not respond to workers’ request for recognition of a union formed by quality assurance testers at Raven Software" https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/01/25/activision-blizzard-doesnt-respond-raven-software-union-recognition-request-by-workers-tuesday-deadline/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/01/25/activi... "The NLRB found Curaleaf violated federal labor law by refusing to recognize and bargain with workers there, but the company is appealing the decision. Curaleaf had initially challenged the result of the election, which the union won by one vote, but the labor board later ruled in UFCW’s favor." https://www.gmtoday.com/news/illinois/2022-saw-a-wave-of-new-unions-form-getting-to-the-bargaining-table-is-the/article_f5f5a0f0-8bd5-11ed-b22c-77dcad9195ea.html https://www.gmtoday.com/news/illinois/2022-saw-a-wave-of-new... "The decision ordered Starbucks subsidiary Siren Retail Corp. to negotiate with the new union at its Seattle Roastery restaurant... The company contested the union's victory because the government held an election by mail ballot rather than an in-person election. Starbucks plans to appeal the ruling." https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/employment-law/pages/starbucks-negotiate-with-union-in-seattle.aspx https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/... "Since the workers went public with their union and began to bargain, Trader Joe’s has cut hours of union employees under the guise of the "slow season," while at the same time hiring new workers and giving them full-time schedules." http://www.fightbacknews.org/2023/1/3/minneapolis-newly-organized-trader-joe-s-workers-rally-first-contract http://www.fightbacknews.org/2023/1/3/minneapolis-newly-orga...
- gyulai 4y ago
  ...okay, so other companies had a bad time attempting that particular union-busting tactic, resulting in reputational damage (and fines?) Maybe Microsoft learned from this that the odds of success are low. Maybe labour got better at organizing these ballots in a way so they can't be contested. I fail to see how any of that means that they have a soul that's somehow pro-labour, while those other companies are soulless labour-crushing business automatons.
  - coldpie 4y ago
    > I fail to see how any of that means that they have a soul that's somehow pro-union Sorry, can you point me to who made this claim?
    - gyulai 4y ago
      I was trying to make a very subtle point in a very condensed way. The initial claim was "statement about openness makes Microsoft an outlier". My counterclaim was "statement is meaningless". Why am I saying that? Because Microsoft is a business, not a person. Persons have souls and hence attributes like "openness" can apply to persons. Businesses are profit-maximizing automatons. They do not have souls. What does it mean for an automaton to be "open" to anything? Nothing, it doesn't make sense at a surface-level. Upon a deeper analysis it gives me pause that it blandly contradicts what their incentives obviously are, namely to win a zero-sum game that they're playing against a union. The interpretation whereby they're communicating in bad faith is as good or better than the interpretation whereby you can take them at their word when they talk about openness. There is no way to know which of two contradictory interpretations is the truth. Hence the information content is zero (my initial claim).
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  It's all talk until union negotiations actually start. Talk is cheap, increased wages and benefits are not. When Microsoft is met with demands that will actually cost them, we'll see for real whether Microsoft's actions will comport with their words. I'm not optimistic. As other commenters pointed out, this union is limited to QA testers who don't have all that much leverage in the company. The people who do already have better paying positions, and aren't all that interested in unionization.

by gyulai 4y ago

impish9208 4y ago

Well, the president of CWA (the union) also praises them: > “Microsoft has lived up to its commitment to its workers and let them decide for themselves whether they want a union,” CWA President Chris Shelton said. “Other videogame and tech giants have made a conscious choice to attack, undermine, and demoralize their own employees when they join together to form a union.”

gyulai 4y ago
...there's an obvious zero-sum game involved when unions negotiate with companies. Think of other zero-sum games like negotiating a price. Have you ever asked a salesperson about a price and heard them say "..the highest I can possibly extract from you"? No? Have you ever heard a salesperson say "I'll get you a great deal!" Yes? Does that convince you that most salespeople are really big on altruism?

coldpie 4y ago

> What else are they going to say in public? Microsoft recognizing the union instead of fighting tooth & nail to destroy it is genuinely novel behavior. They could refuse to recognize the union, or sue to invalidate the ballot, as many, many companies do: "Activision Blizzard did not respond to workers’ request for recognition of a union formed by quality assurance testers at Raven Software" https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/01/25/activision-blizzard-doesnt-respond-raven-software-union-recognition-request-by-workers-tuesday-deadline/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/01/25/activi... "The NLRB found Curaleaf violated federal labor law by refusing to recognize and bargain with workers there, but the company is appealing the decision. Curaleaf had initially challenged the result of the election, which the union won by one vote, but the labor board later ruled in UFCW’s favor." https://www.gmtoday.com/news/illinois/2022-saw-a-wave-of-new-unions-form-getting-to-the-bargaining-table-is-the/article_f5f5a0f0-8bd5-11ed-b22c-77dcad9195ea.html https://www.gmtoday.com/news/illinois/2022-saw-a-wave-of-new... "The decision ordered Starbucks subsidiary Siren Retail Corp. to negotiate with the new union at its Seattle Roastery restaurant... The company contested the union's victory because the government held an election by mail ballot rather than an in-person election. Starbucks plans to appeal the ruling." https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/employment-law/pages/starbucks-negotiate-with-union-in-seattle.aspx https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/... "Since the workers went public with their union and began to bargain, Trader Joe’s has cut hours of union employees under the guise of the "slow season," while at the same time hiring new workers and giving them full-time schedules." http://www.fightbacknews.org/2023/1/3/minneapolis-newly-organized-trader-joe-s-workers-rally-first-contract http://www.fightbacknews.org/2023/1/3/minneapolis-newly-orga...

gyulai 4y ago
...okay, so other companies had a bad time attempting that particular union-busting tactic, resulting in reputational damage (and fines?) Maybe Microsoft learned from this that the odds of success are low. Maybe labour got better at organizing these ballots in a way so they can't be contested. I fail to see how any of that means that they have a soul that's somehow pro-labour, while those other companies are soulless labour-crushing business automatons.
- coldpie 4y ago
  > I fail to see how any of that means that they have a soul that's somehow pro-union Sorry, can you point me to who made this claim?
  - gyulai 4y ago
    I was trying to make a very subtle point in a very condensed way. The initial claim was "statement about openness makes Microsoft an outlier". My counterclaim was "statement is meaningless". Why am I saying that? Because Microsoft is a business, not a person. Persons have souls and hence attributes like "openness" can apply to persons. Businesses are profit-maximizing automatons. They do not have souls. What does it mean for an automaton to be "open" to anything? Nothing, it doesn't make sense at a surface-level. Upon a deeper analysis it gives me pause that it blandly contradicts what their incentives obviously are, namely to win a zero-sum game that they're playing against a union. The interpretation whereby they're communicating in bad faith is as good or better than the interpretation whereby you can take them at their word when they talk about openness. There is no way to know which of two contradictory interpretations is the truth. Hence the information content is zero (my initial claim).
Manuel_D 4y ago
It's all talk until union negotiations actually start. Talk is cheap, increased wages and benefits are not. When Microsoft is met with demands that will actually cost them, we'll see for real whether Microsoft's actions will comport with their words. I'm not optimistic. As other commenters pointed out, this union is limited to QA testers who don't have all that much leverage in the company. The people who do already have better paying positions, and aren't all that interested in unionization.