6 ms·

Bitcoin Is the Detector of Imbeciles

janandonly 4y ago
True. Only if you can tell me in what circumstances a bitcoin transaction is better/more useful than a cash or bank transfer, you are clever. Don't get it = not clever. Want to use it where it has no need = also not clever. Want to slap "blockchain" on anything that may or may not need it = clever if you dump your bags fast enough. Otherwise, not clever. In both cases, immoral.
- lfodofod 4y ago
  Buying drugs on the internet? Need to rapidly transfer money to a country like Ukraine? (exchange desks in Kiev are still working, processing millions a day)
  - prepend 4y ago
    This seems reasonable to me, but does Ukraine not have banks that accept wire transfers? Can’t I just log into my US bank and do an international transfer to a recipient in Ukraine?
    - wnzl 4y ago
      Speaking as person who lives in country next to UA. Yes you can - without problem. You can even deliver package without any single issue other than a bit higher cost. I do not understand how bitcoin would be better over bank controlled transaction.
      - lfodofod 4y ago
        > I do not understand how bitcoin would be better over bank controlled transaction. Because you get cash in Kiev within the hour, instead of in a couple of days.
        prepend 4y ago
        An international wire transfer has been instantaneous when I’ve used them in the past. I’ve never sent to Ukraine, but have to UK, Nepal, Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya, Romania, Switzerland, Korea, and Australia. I haven’t timed it, but recipients all got the money same day. Does it take a long time in Kiev to process transfers? How does the recipient spend butcoin anyway? Wouldn’t they need to transfer it to a local bank before withdrawing as cash or whatnot?
        lfodofod 4y ago
        > Wouldn’t they need to transfer it to a local bank before withdrawing as cash or whatnot? There are a bunch of exchange desks that will immediately exchange to paper USD. Want half a million dollars in cash within the hour? No problem.
    - lfodofod 4y ago
      > but does Ukraine not have banks that accept wire transfers Of course they do, it’ll just take at least a day for the money to arrive.
  - acdha 4y ago
    The vast major of the money going to Ukraine is going through normal channels, saving the extra cost and risk of using cryptocurrencies. They need to buy things which are sold in stable currencies so adding a conversion fee usually cancels out the perceived benefits.
    - lfodofod 4y ago
      So what? Vast majority of transactions don’t benefit from the vast speed advantages cryptocurrencies offer. Bank transfers are perfectly fine if you’re happy to wait a few days for the money to arrive. What’s the point of moving goalposts like this?
  - klesesio 4y ago
    For this to work, you still need an entity in Ukraine to accept bitcoin and owning Ukraine currency. The same thing with 3th world countries: to be able to rescue your money, you need to find someone who wants to take that risky currency and exchange it to crypto for you and back if you need it. But as soon as Bitcoin/crypto is so established than there is a big chance that the country/dictator steps in and forbids it.yes that is technically possible (see great Chinese firewall)
    - lfodofod 4y ago
      There are multiple cash desks in Kiev processing millions worth of transactions every day. You can easily send 100k from anywhere in the world and have it cashed out within the hour. > to be able to rescue your money, you need to find someone who wants to take that risky currency and exchange it to crypto for you and back if you need it. Ukraine runs on USD, very few “serious” transactions occur in UAH. All businesses accept USD, from kiosks to restaurants to car dealerships.
- mattbrewsbytes 4y ago
  The use case I've read about is where bitcoin acts as a currency to avoid government/bank issues in some countries where the country's currency has wild inflation and/or the government/bank is untrustworthy (freezes accounts, etc.) So crypto can be helpful for people to transfer money or keep it safe (relative to seized accounts or worthless currency) if they are leaving or seeking asylum elsewhere or similar scenarios. Most affluent people (globally speaking) have many other options (USD cash, venmo/apps, ACH, wire transfers, checks, etc.) to transfer money to others. I would like the financial elements of blockchain to be set aside and let those knowledgeable explore actual problem domains. A distributed, transparent database of entries might have some uses that can't be seen thru the fog of those that want to get rich. One problem set that seems like a good fit is for actual real estate title/deed information. Having to pay for a "title search" or "title insurance" is bonkers every time a real estate transaction occurs on the same piece of land.
  - landemva 4y ago
    > Having to pay for a "title search" or "title insurance" is bonkers It is over-priced for the effort. This is a lender requirement, so if you pay cash or cattle there is no requirement to do this check.
  - acdha 4y ago
    > One problem set that seems like a good fit is for actual real estate title/deed information. Having to pay for a "title search" or "title insurance" is bonkers every time a real estate transaction occurs on the same piece of land. This is a good example of why blockchains aren’t a solution for most problems. For real estate records, the only thing which matters is what the local government will enforce - digital signatures can be interesting but the anonymity/trustless stuff is an expensive distraction. One big factor here is that you can’t rely on access to keys: someone needs to be able to override records when not uncommon things happen such as an owner dying, a messy divorce, etc. For title insurance, what you’re paying for is, well, insurance, not a database query. The risk here is that the records don’t match reality - for example, surveying errors happen, a previous seller might not have had clear rights, etc.
- AbrahamParangi 4y ago
  It allows you to rely on a different set of assumptions regarding transactions. Normally I can buy or sell something if: 1. My government will allow me to transact 2. My bank will allow me to transact Instead, with Bitcoin your assumptions become: 1. My counterparty will allow me to transact The difference between the first set of assumptions and the second is basically regulatory arbitrage. There is meaningful value to people to do things that are not permitted by their government or bank but which they think should be. Now, some of those things are serious crimes! Like fraud or money laundering, but some of those things are more like Uber or Airbnb, where some people think they shouldn’t exist but many people like them.
  - rocket_surgeron 4y ago
    >Normally I can buy or sell something if: >1. My government will allow me to transact 2. My bank will allow me to transact Cryptobros keep saying this. What kind of fantasy world do they live in where the government and banks "normally" approve or disapprove of cash transactions? The bank from which you have withdrawn the cash does not know or care what you use it for, and the government may care but good luck it finding out. Remember, bitcoin is DIGITAL CASH as per the first sentence of the bitcoin white paper so like for like should be compared: analog cash to digital cash. You used the word "normally". I don't think "normally" means what you think it means. Crypto is insane. Incomprehensible. The perfect merging of paranoiac libertarians and immoral grifters forming a feedback loop of destruction that grinds up and spits out the masses in order to enrich the few at a scale that traditional banking could only dream of. Executives at Goldman Sachs are looking at the people running off with cash at all of the cryptoscams, the margins of miners, with jealousy because "duh jackbooted gubmint" says they have to like, obey the law and stuff. Crypto is a symptom of something being wrong with society but I don't know what. I do know that everyone I know personally who has been into crypto has either been an immoral scammer... or an imbecile.
    - AbrahamParangi 4y ago
      Fine, add “or if you have and can transport sufficient cash and can meet face to face” to the first set of assumptions which doesn’t change the point at all. This world, the one we live in, is one where the government and your bank - even in most rich and free countries - will not let you transact in certain ways or buy certain things. Perhaps that doesn’t matter to you! That’s okay! But it is how it is.
acdha 4y ago
The point about interest rates is broadly applicable: we saw the first mortgage bubble pumped up by large investors trying to recover from their dotcom losses, followed by waves of obviously doomed startups and non-solutions like cryptocurrency, all sharing the common desire to find higher returns than have been possible since the turn of the century. Increasing interest rates should encourage better decisions but at least in the United States there are a ton of people who are depending on being able to sell their homes at a hefty profit for retirement, so they won’t be happy to see mortgage rates anywhere near the historic levels.
illgenr 4y ago
[flagged]
jqpabc123 4y ago
Bitcoin/crypto is a detector of naivety, inexperience and arrogance. Blockchain is simply an accounting system. It is naive to assume that "trustless" accounting can/will lead to a functional, trustless monetary system without government. It is arrogant to assume that understanding blockchain gives one insight on finance and monetary policy and marketplace dynamics. Scammers and con artists feed on naivety, arrogance and over confidence --- and crypto is the proof.
- scotty79 4y ago
  I think for bitcoin to have a shot at fulfilling its stated goals it needs to mostly settle. Just stop outperforming every other asset*. It should happen in a few 4-year boom-bust cycles. Every new cycle is shallower than the previous one. Until it settles, being most attractive speculative asset overshadows any other functionality it has. [*] Every other boring asset that people usually invest in for more than 4years.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    I think the only path for bitcoin to move beyond speculation and fulfill it's stated goals is to become a real, practical currency. Absent price inflation/manipulation, there is little legal incentive to own bitcoin. I don't think this can/will happen without government regulation. Otherwise, it will remain a playground for scammers and market makers/manipulators to enrich themselves at other's expense. Government may be bad but the lack of it is worse. As evidenced by thousands of years of human experience.
    - scotty79 4y ago
      If the price stabilizes then it will become wonderful store of value that you can move safely and privately across the borders. Which might have huge utility in the age of large migrations caused by global warming.
      - jqpabc123 4y ago
        Any stability bitcoin has achieved has been through association and/or manipulation with "stable coins" and dubious ties to fiat. Bitcoin is not private and you can't really use the funds to make any real world purchase without converting into fiat and paying associated fees. An account with wise.com can achieve similar cross border results with superior usability --- without bitcoin.

True. Only if you can tell me in what circumstances a bitcoin transaction is better/more useful than a cash or bank transfer, you are clever. Don't get it = not clever. Want to use it where it has no need = also not clever. Want to slap "blockchain" on anything that may or may not need it = clever if you dump your bags fast enough. Otherwise, not clever. In both cases, immoral.

lfodofod 4y ago
Buying drugs on the internet? Need to rapidly transfer money to a country like Ukraine? (exchange desks in Kiev are still working, processing millions a day)
- prepend 4y ago
  This seems reasonable to me, but does Ukraine not have banks that accept wire transfers? Can’t I just log into my US bank and do an international transfer to a recipient in Ukraine?
  - wnzl 4y ago
    Speaking as person who lives in country next to UA. Yes you can - without problem. You can even deliver package without any single issue other than a bit higher cost. I do not understand how bitcoin would be better over bank controlled transaction.
    - lfodofod 4y ago
      > I do not understand how bitcoin would be better over bank controlled transaction. Because you get cash in Kiev within the hour, instead of in a couple of days.
      - prepend 4y ago
        An international wire transfer has been instantaneous when I’ve used them in the past. I’ve never sent to Ukraine, but have to UK, Nepal, Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya, Romania, Switzerland, Korea, and Australia. I haven’t timed it, but recipients all got the money same day. Does it take a long time in Kiev to process transfers? How does the recipient spend butcoin anyway? Wouldn’t they need to transfer it to a local bank before withdrawing as cash or whatnot?
        lfodofod 4y ago
        > Wouldn’t they need to transfer it to a local bank before withdrawing as cash or whatnot? There are a bunch of exchange desks that will immediately exchange to paper USD. Want half a million dollars in cash within the hour? No problem.
  - lfodofod 4y ago
    > but does Ukraine not have banks that accept wire transfers Of course they do, it’ll just take at least a day for the money to arrive.
- acdha 4y ago
  The vast major of the money going to Ukraine is going through normal channels, saving the extra cost and risk of using cryptocurrencies. They need to buy things which are sold in stable currencies so adding a conversion fee usually cancels out the perceived benefits.
  - lfodofod 4y ago
    So what? Vast majority of transactions don’t benefit from the vast speed advantages cryptocurrencies offer. Bank transfers are perfectly fine if you’re happy to wait a few days for the money to arrive. What’s the point of moving goalposts like this?
- klesesio 4y ago
  For this to work, you still need an entity in Ukraine to accept bitcoin and owning Ukraine currency. The same thing with 3th world countries: to be able to rescue your money, you need to find someone who wants to take that risky currency and exchange it to crypto for you and back if you need it. But as soon as Bitcoin/crypto is so established than there is a big chance that the country/dictator steps in and forbids it.yes that is technically possible (see great Chinese firewall)
  - lfodofod 4y ago
    There are multiple cash desks in Kiev processing millions worth of transactions every day. You can easily send 100k from anywhere in the world and have it cashed out within the hour. > to be able to rescue your money, you need to find someone who wants to take that risky currency and exchange it to crypto for you and back if you need it. Ukraine runs on USD, very few “serious” transactions occur in UAH. All businesses accept USD, from kiosks to restaurants to car dealerships.
mattbrewsbytes 4y ago
The use case I've read about is where bitcoin acts as a currency to avoid government/bank issues in some countries where the country's currency has wild inflation and/or the government/bank is untrustworthy (freezes accounts, etc.) So crypto can be helpful for people to transfer money or keep it safe (relative to seized accounts or worthless currency) if they are leaving or seeking asylum elsewhere or similar scenarios. Most affluent people (globally speaking) have many other options (USD cash, venmo/apps, ACH, wire transfers, checks, etc.) to transfer money to others. I would like the financial elements of blockchain to be set aside and let those knowledgeable explore actual problem domains. A distributed, transparent database of entries might have some uses that can't be seen thru the fog of those that want to get rich. One problem set that seems like a good fit is for actual real estate title/deed information. Having to pay for a "title search" or "title insurance" is bonkers every time a real estate transaction occurs on the same piece of land.
- landemva 4y ago
  > Having to pay for a "title search" or "title insurance" is bonkers It is over-priced for the effort. This is a lender requirement, so if you pay cash or cattle there is no requirement to do this check.
- acdha 4y ago
  > One problem set that seems like a good fit is for actual real estate title/deed information. Having to pay for a "title search" or "title insurance" is bonkers every time a real estate transaction occurs on the same piece of land. This is a good example of why blockchains aren’t a solution for most problems. For real estate records, the only thing which matters is what the local government will enforce - digital signatures can be interesting but the anonymity/trustless stuff is an expensive distraction. One big factor here is that you can’t rely on access to keys: someone needs to be able to override records when not uncommon things happen such as an owner dying, a messy divorce, etc. For title insurance, what you’re paying for is, well, insurance, not a database query. The risk here is that the records don’t match reality - for example, surveying errors happen, a previous seller might not have had clear rights, etc.
AbrahamParangi 4y ago
It allows you to rely on a different set of assumptions regarding transactions. Normally I can buy or sell something if: 1. My government will allow me to transact 2. My bank will allow me to transact Instead, with Bitcoin your assumptions become: 1. My counterparty will allow me to transact The difference between the first set of assumptions and the second is basically regulatory arbitrage. There is meaningful value to people to do things that are not permitted by their government or bank but which they think should be. Now, some of those things are serious crimes! Like fraud or money laundering, but some of those things are more like Uber or Airbnb, where some people think they shouldn’t exist but many people like them.
- rocket_surgeron 4y ago
  >Normally I can buy or sell something if: >1. My government will allow me to transact 2. My bank will allow me to transact Cryptobros keep saying this. What kind of fantasy world do they live in where the government and banks "normally" approve or disapprove of cash transactions? The bank from which you have withdrawn the cash does not know or care what you use it for, and the government may care but good luck it finding out. Remember, bitcoin is DIGITAL CASH as per the first sentence of the bitcoin white paper so like for like should be compared: analog cash to digital cash. You used the word "normally". I don't think "normally" means what you think it means. Crypto is insane. Incomprehensible. The perfect merging of paranoiac libertarians and immoral grifters forming a feedback loop of destruction that grinds up and spits out the masses in order to enrich the few at a scale that traditional banking could only dream of. Executives at Goldman Sachs are looking at the people running off with cash at all of the cryptoscams, the margins of miners, with jealousy because "duh jackbooted gubmint" says they have to like, obey the law and stuff. Crypto is a symptom of something being wrong with society but I don't know what. I do know that everyone I know personally who has been into crypto has either been an immoral scammer... or an imbecile.
  - AbrahamParangi 4y ago
    Fine, add “or if you have and can transport sufficient cash and can meet face to face” to the first set of assumptions which doesn’t change the point at all. This world, the one we live in, is one where the government and your bank - even in most rich and free countries - will not let you transact in certain ways or buy certain things. Perhaps that doesn’t matter to you! That’s okay! But it is how it is.

acdha 4y ago

The point about interest rates is broadly applicable: we saw the first mortgage bubble pumped up by large investors trying to recover from their dotcom losses, followed by waves of obviously doomed startups and non-solutions like cryptocurrency, all sharing the common desire to find higher returns than have been possible since the turn of the century. Increasing interest rates should encourage better decisions but at least in the United States there are a ton of people who are depending on being able to sell their homes at a hefty profit for retirement, so they won’t be happy to see mortgage rates anywhere near the historic levels.

illgenr 4y ago

[flagged]

jqpabc123 4y ago

Bitcoin/crypto is a detector of naivety, inexperience and arrogance. Blockchain is simply an accounting system. It is naive to assume that "trustless" accounting can/will lead to a functional, trustless monetary system without government. It is arrogant to assume that understanding blockchain gives one insight on finance and monetary policy and marketplace dynamics. Scammers and con artists feed on naivety, arrogance and over confidence --- and crypto is the proof.

scotty79 4y ago
I think for bitcoin to have a shot at fulfilling its stated goals it needs to mostly settle. Just stop outperforming every other asset*. It should happen in a few 4-year boom-bust cycles. Every new cycle is shallower than the previous one. Until it settles, being most attractive speculative asset overshadows any other functionality it has. [*] Every other boring asset that people usually invest in for more than 4years.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  I think the only path for bitcoin to move beyond speculation and fulfill it's stated goals is to become a real, practical currency. Absent price inflation/manipulation, there is little legal incentive to own bitcoin. I don't think this can/will happen without government regulation. Otherwise, it will remain a playground for scammers and market makers/manipulators to enrich themselves at other's expense. Government may be bad but the lack of it is worse. As evidenced by thousands of years of human experience.
  - scotty79 4y ago
    If the price stabilizes then it will become wonderful store of value that you can move safely and privately across the borders. Which might have huge utility in the age of large migrations caused by global warming.
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      Any stability bitcoin has achieved has been through association and/or manipulation with "stable coins" and dubious ties to fiat. Bitcoin is not private and you can't really use the funds to make any real world purchase without converting into fiat and paying associated fees. An account with wise.com can achieve similar cross border results with superior usability --- without bitcoin.