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> Most open and publicly available spaces on the web are overrun with bots, advertisers, trolls, data scrapers, clickbait, keyword-stuffing “content creators,”

by p-e-w 4y ago

> Most open and publicly available spaces on the web are overrun with bots, advertisers, trolls, data scrapers, clickbait, keyword-stuffing “content creators,” and algorithmically manipulated junk. Nonsense. That's certainly not true for HN, for most of Reddit outside of a few big subs, for GitHub, for Wikipedia, for IRC/Matrix, for most mailing lists, or for any of the hundreds of thousands of traditional web forums still in active use. It sounds like what the author is really saying is "Facebook and Twitter are overrun with these things, and those are the only 'publicly available spaces' that matter". Which, of course, is once again complete nonsense.

bryanrasmussen 4y ago
Well of course what they mean the vast number of places in use by the general public have been overrun, also aside from Facebook and Twitter - Google Search YouTube
specproc 4y ago
Aye, but for the average internet user, these spaces are very important. I'd also argue that the point holds primarily for search, Google has been pretty much crippled by junk content. There's very much a point here.
PurpleRamen 4y ago
> That's certainly not true for HN, for most of Reddit outside of a few big subs, for GitHub, for Wikipedia, Just because you don't recognize them, doesn't mean they are not there. Subtle advertisement and trolling is strong even on HN. It's just not in-your-face-style. > for IRC/Matrix, for most mailing lists, or for any of the hundreds of thousands of traditional web forums still in active use. Those could be seen as less public spaces like slack or discord. Generally, any place with strong moderation or poor automation-option is a cozy web, where dumb junk has little to no space.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  > Just because you don't recognize them, doesn't mean they are not there. Subtle advertisement and trolling is strong even on HN. It's just not in-your-face-style. No one said they aren’t here. But they certainly haven't "overrun" the place.
  - mandmandam 4y ago
    What's your definition of "overrun"? If you were paying attention to the shifts in tone and the window of 'acceptable' conversation on here, it's been pretty dramatic. Post or comment the 'wrong' thing about the 'wrong' topic here and you'll get damn near instaflagged, your post removed, rate limited, etc. Say something (true) against a company with active PR goons, and you'll find the entire comment section turned into a toxic mess within 15 minutes. If you think that shit is normal, you don't remember how things used to be.
    - Semaphor 4y ago
      I mean, I have showdead on. I see what comments are flagged. They are flamebait the vast majority of the time.
      - mandmandam 4y ago
        Sure, much of the time removed comments are poor quality. Sometimes though, they are comments that ought to have been the top comment. Anything that gets flagged will be seen by far, far fewer people. Most people here don't have shadowdead on. Most don't even know that it exists. And that's just comments. More important are the stories that get wiped. Stories that are flagged by motivated minorities at lightning speed, unseen unless you're obsessively browsing new. Even if you do find one, you can't comment on it. One vouch isn't enough to bring it back, even if you see it shortly after it's posted. Moderators can cite "the will of the community" and there's nothing you can do about it. Stories don't even have to be deleted. A post that gets flagged for just a short time can drop impressions by 90+% and never get back on the front page. This happens a lot with certain topics. So, you're right in what you're saying - but that's far from the full story.
w1nst0nsm1th 4y ago
It depends what is the subject. Crypto come to mind. People having interest in it have flooded every available public space, and not only online : Search engines ('coin something' websites), /r/bitcoin, /r/cryptocurrency and so on, youtube at large, online media outlets, online financial newspapers, amazon, physical bookstores, paper business magazines, business tv, and so on.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
The author makes explicit distinction between those large mass basically unmoderated public forums, and other forums (private or semi-public) that have more gatekeeping of some form. Which I think basically describes HN. Without the efforts of dang, this place would fall apart into the same disease as faces other large mass forums.

by p-e-w 4y ago

bryanrasmussen 4y ago

Well of course what they mean the vast number of places in use by the general public have been overrun, also aside from Facebook and Twitter - Google Search YouTube

specproc 4y ago

Aye, but for the average internet user, these spaces are very important. I'd also argue that the point holds primarily for search, Google has been pretty much crippled by junk content. There's very much a point here.

PurpleRamen 4y ago

> That's certainly not true for HN, for most of Reddit outside of a few big subs, for GitHub, for Wikipedia, Just because you don't recognize them, doesn't mean they are not there. Subtle advertisement and trolling is strong even on HN. It's just not in-your-face-style. > for IRC/Matrix, for most mailing lists, or for any of the hundreds of thousands of traditional web forums still in active use. Those could be seen as less public spaces like slack or discord. Generally, any place with strong moderation or poor automation-option is a cozy web, where dumb junk has little to no space.

Semaphor 4y ago
> Just because you don't recognize them, doesn't mean they are not there. Subtle advertisement and trolling is strong even on HN. It's just not in-your-face-style. No one said they aren’t here. But they certainly haven't "overrun" the place.
- mandmandam 4y ago
  What's your definition of "overrun"? If you were paying attention to the shifts in tone and the window of 'acceptable' conversation on here, it's been pretty dramatic. Post or comment the 'wrong' thing about the 'wrong' topic here and you'll get damn near instaflagged, your post removed, rate limited, etc. Say something (true) against a company with active PR goons, and you'll find the entire comment section turned into a toxic mess within 15 minutes. If you think that shit is normal, you don't remember how things used to be.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    I mean, I have showdead on. I see what comments are flagged. They are flamebait the vast majority of the time.
    - mandmandam 4y ago
      Sure, much of the time removed comments are poor quality. Sometimes though, they are comments that ought to have been the top comment. Anything that gets flagged will be seen by far, far fewer people. Most people here don't have shadowdead on. Most don't even know that it exists. And that's just comments. More important are the stories that get wiped. Stories that are flagged by motivated minorities at lightning speed, unseen unless you're obsessively browsing new. Even if you do find one, you can't comment on it. One vouch isn't enough to bring it back, even if you see it shortly after it's posted. Moderators can cite "the will of the community" and there's nothing you can do about it. Stories don't even have to be deleted. A post that gets flagged for just a short time can drop impressions by 90+% and never get back on the front page. This happens a lot with certain topics. So, you're right in what you're saying - but that's far from the full story.

w1nst0nsm1th 4y ago

It depends what is the subject. Crypto come to mind. People having interest in it have flooded every available public space, and not only online : Search engines ('coin something' websites), /r/bitcoin, /r/cryptocurrency and so on, youtube at large, online media outlets, online financial newspapers, amazon, physical bookstores, paper business magazines, business tv, and so on.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

The author makes explicit distinction between those large mass basically unmoderated public forums, and other forums (private or semi-public) that have more gatekeeping of some form. Which I think basically describes HN. Without the efforts of dang, this place would fall apart into the same disease as faces other large mass forums.