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Japan is pretty difficult to integrate into. Aside from the language issue, it is also difficult to integrate socially if you are a foreigner. It's also not the

Japan is pretty difficult to integrate into. Aside from the language issue, it is also difficult to integrate socially if you are a foreigner. It's also not the most attractive destination for skilled foreigners to immigrate to given that wages are much better elsewhere. Fixing these issues is more complex than simply increasing visa quotas.

bayesian_horse 4y ago
That's not a counterargument to not needing immigration. Immigration would buffer their population decline and help them to loosen up some of the calcified structures in the society or at least ameliorate their negative consequences. Of course it's not just about visas. If there is a way and a reason to immigrate, people will do so, even illegally. Japan can't even benefit from illegal immigration because its geographic properties isolate it so well.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - bayesian_horse 4y ago
    That is also not a counterargument to not needing immigration, just a reiteration of not wanting immigration. You hand-wave over what actually constitutes "too much immigration", and any evidence that more immigration leads to more "fascism" or even just hatred against immigrants. Hungary has hardly any immigration but manages to motivate fascism through fear of immigration. On the other hand, more contact with immigrants often leads to less fear of immigrants (has been shown in many studies). The sentiment is stronger for example in Eastern Germany vs Western Germany and guess where there are almost no immigrants. Limiting immigration to keep nutjobs and evil people happy seems like a dangerous argument.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      East Germans' votes count just the same as west Germans'. Same in the US, only worse: votes in Iowa and Idaho count more than votes in California and NY. That's how the US got Trump. You seem to have forgotten about that 4-year period of hell.
      - smcl 4y ago
        That feels like a problem fairly unique towards the way US elects presidents and senators. In countries where a vote isn’t “worth” less in one area than another you wouldn’t have this. Besides I don’t think “but how will this make the racists feel” is a great way to govern.
      - bayesian_horse 4y ago
        Well, with "Eastern Germany" I mean a particular region which is particularly smaller. And my point was towards racism in general, which is greater where there are fewer immigrants. It's still completely safe to immigrate to cities in Eastern Germany, even for Muslims and black people, even though those would be the most "frowned upon" ethnicities. Still, stopping immigration to stop Trump even seems stupider than the original argument.
- nullsense 4y ago
  >and help them to loosen up some of the calcified structures in the society This is the exact reason they desperately don't want immigration.
spike021 4y ago
> Aside from the language issue, it is also difficult to integrate socially if you are a foreigner. So, I do not live in Japan, but I've visited multiple times now. I don't speak Japanese more than a few words here and there and mainly get by usually with Google Translate. I've had a not-too-difficult time making friends (who I even stay in touch with from here in the US) by finding people there who participate in the same hobbies (car culture and baseball, specifically). Generally, most people I've met in those communities are very friendly. Not everyone enjoys the Google Translate back and forth but many still do. Anyway, like I said before, I don't live there so it may be different as a long-term resident. But I just feel like based on my experience so far, the "way in" may just be a matter of finding people with similar interests, much like I would here in the US.
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  My impression from friends who immigrated to Japan is that people at work and in official positions are much much less friendly.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Every government official I've dealt with here has been extremely patient with me; I've never had a problem at government offices, or at work, with Japanese people.
- arichardsmith 4y ago
  My personal experience having lived here for 8 years (not in a city and not in the tech industry), is you are quickly "welcomed" but to "integrate" takes a long time, if ever, and involves changing a lot of your own behavior. Many of my friends who have lived here much longer than me have the same experience. Most of us quickly made casual friends as you described, but are yet to make many close friends. As for integrating into society, most of us found society quick to help and welcome us, but struggled to move on from "the foreigner that needs help and teaching" to "the person with ideas and opinions as valid as an equivalent Japanese person", this is irrespective of Japanese ability. Perhaps that is why many people says it's difficult to integrate, what we immigrants want from integration and what Japanese society wants from integrated immigrants is fundamentaly different.
midoridensha 4y ago
>It's also not the most attractive destination for skilled foreigners to immigrate to given that wages are much better elsewhere. This isn't true in my experience. The wages for IT work are much better in the US, but that's it. Tech salaries in Europe are just as bad as in Japan, AFAICT, but housing costs in Europe are worse. >Aside from the language issue, it is also difficult to integrate socially if you are a foreigner. This is true everywhere. Talk to anyone about their experiences of emigrating to Germany, for instance. Or someplace in middle America like Iowa. From my experiences with immigrant friends in the US, their social circles are mostly other immigrants or expats from their home countries.

bayesian_horse 4y ago

That's not a counterargument to not needing immigration. Immigration would buffer their population decline and help them to loosen up some of the calcified structures in the society or at least ameliorate their negative consequences. Of course it's not just about visas. If there is a way and a reason to immigrate, people will do so, even illegally. Japan can't even benefit from illegal immigration because its geographic properties isolate it so well.

midoridensha 4y ago
[flagged]
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  That is also not a counterargument to not needing immigration, just a reiteration of not wanting immigration. You hand-wave over what actually constitutes "too much immigration", and any evidence that more immigration leads to more "fascism" or even just hatred against immigrants. Hungary has hardly any immigration but manages to motivate fascism through fear of immigration. On the other hand, more contact with immigrants often leads to less fear of immigrants (has been shown in many studies). The sentiment is stronger for example in Eastern Germany vs Western Germany and guess where there are almost no immigrants. Limiting immigration to keep nutjobs and evil people happy seems like a dangerous argument.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    East Germans' votes count just the same as west Germans'. Same in the US, only worse: votes in Iowa and Idaho count more than votes in California and NY. That's how the US got Trump. You seem to have forgotten about that 4-year period of hell.
    - smcl 4y ago
      That feels like a problem fairly unique towards the way US elects presidents and senators. In countries where a vote isn’t “worth” less in one area than another you wouldn’t have this. Besides I don’t think “but how will this make the racists feel” is a great way to govern.
    - bayesian_horse 4y ago
      Well, with "Eastern Germany" I mean a particular region which is particularly smaller. And my point was towards racism in general, which is greater where there are fewer immigrants. It's still completely safe to immigrate to cities in Eastern Germany, even for Muslims and black people, even though those would be the most "frowned upon" ethnicities. Still, stopping immigration to stop Trump even seems stupider than the original argument.
nullsense 4y ago
>and help them to loosen up some of the calcified structures in the society This is the exact reason they desperately don't want immigration.

spike021 4y ago

> Aside from the language issue, it is also difficult to integrate socially if you are a foreigner. So, I do not live in Japan, but I've visited multiple times now. I don't speak Japanese more than a few words here and there and mainly get by usually with Google Translate. I've had a not-too-difficult time making friends (who I even stay in touch with from here in the US) by finding people there who participate in the same hobbies (car culture and baseball, specifically). Generally, most people I've met in those communities are very friendly. Not everyone enjoys the Google Translate back and forth but many still do. Anyway, like I said before, I don't live there so it may be different as a long-term resident. But I just feel like based on my experience so far, the "way in" may just be a matter of finding people with similar interests, much like I would here in the US.

lazyasciiart 4y ago
My impression from friends who immigrated to Japan is that people at work and in official positions are much much less friendly.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  Every government official I've dealt with here has been extremely patient with me; I've never had a problem at government offices, or at work, with Japanese people.
arichardsmith 4y ago
My personal experience having lived here for 8 years (not in a city and not in the tech industry), is you are quickly "welcomed" but to "integrate" takes a long time, if ever, and involves changing a lot of your own behavior. Many of my friends who have lived here much longer than me have the same experience. Most of us quickly made casual friends as you described, but are yet to make many close friends. As for integrating into society, most of us found society quick to help and welcome us, but struggled to move on from "the foreigner that needs help and teaching" to "the person with ideas and opinions as valid as an equivalent Japanese person", this is irrespective of Japanese ability. Perhaps that is why many people says it's difficult to integrate, what we immigrants want from integration and what Japanese society wants from integrated immigrants is fundamentaly different.

midoridensha 4y ago

>It's also not the most attractive destination for skilled foreigners to immigrate to given that wages are much better elsewhere. This isn't true in my experience. The wages for IT work are much better in the US, but that's it. Tech salaries in Europe are just as bad as in Japan, AFAICT, but housing costs in Europe are worse. >Aside from the language issue, it is also difficult to integrate socially if you are a foreigner. This is true everywhere. Talk to anyone about their experiences of emigrating to Germany, for instance. Or someplace in middle America like Iowa. From my experiences with immigrant friends in the US, their social circles are mostly other immigrants or expats from their home countries.