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Here's how they do it in Belgium: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/belgium-deals-credit-without-equifax-experian-transunion-114323975.html https://finance.yahoo.c

Here's how they do it in Belgium: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/belgium-deals-credit-without-equifax-experian-transunion-114323975.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/belgium-deals-credit-without-.... They have a public credit bureau hosted by the national bank that records all the loans and credit. The data is not for sale to just about any company that is willing to pay for it, the individual has to give permission to share it when they apply for a loan. There isn't such bullshit as in the US where you practically have to push your student to get a credit card "to start building up a credit score." The system works well enough that there's hardly any debate about it.

gruez 4y ago
>They have a public credit bureau hosted by the national bank that records all the loans and credit. So basically the same as credit bureaus in the US, but it's a government monopoly? Given how well other government agencies work at least in the US (eg. DMV), I'm skeptical that waving a "government" wand would magically fix stuff. >The data is not for sale to just about any company that is willing to pay for it, the individual has to give permission to share it when they apply for a loan AFAIK that's also the case in the US. When you open a bank account/apply for a credit card, somewhere buried in the terms and conditions is a consent for a credit check. >There isn't such bullshit as in the US where you practically have to push your student to get a credit card "to start building up a credit score." In the US at least, the reason why it's commonly advised for students (and other young adults) to "build credit" is to build up a history of credit usage and repayments. I don't see why the same dynamic wouldn't exist in Belgium. Your own linked article says "Later, it added positive marks as well, allowing “no credit” and “good credit” to be distinguished", which suggests the same dynamic would exist in Belgium.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  I can only speak of Germany, where we have the equifax-like SCHUFA. > somewhere buried in the terms and conditions is a consent for a credit check. That’s luckily not allowed (as many other burial tactics) and has to be very visible and explicit. Though in the end that doesn’t change much because it’s not as if you have a choice (outside of saying no thanks to the whole thing) > which suggests the same dynamic would exist in Belgium. It doesn’t in Germany. If they don’t know you at all (= no contact with the banking system whatsoever), you are rated higher risk, but just having a bank account for some time is enough to have a good score. Until data protection laws came along, they even charged you to see your own data, nowadays at least you get it free once per year. IMO the biggest differences are the lack of having to "build credit", the incidental lack of an SSN that can be leaked, and the lack of companies allowing someone to wrongly take out a loan in your name and somehow making it your issue instead of theirs.
  - sam_lowry_ 4y ago
    In Belgium, you have National Number which is basically YYMMDD-XXX-CC where YYMMDD is the birth date XXX is the sequence number of a newborn that date or one of the yet unused numbers for foreign-born CC is the mod 97 of 2YYMMDDXXX for those born over 1980 or YYMMDDXXX for the others which means that it is easy to remember and not really a secret, unlike SSN. As a side note, local bank accounts, wire transfer reference numbers, and company numbers also follow the same pattern of 9..10 digits + mod 97. Compared to the Luhn algorithm for checksums used in the rest of ther world, these are a real joy to see and use. With so much fuzz about Estonian digital state, I wonder why Belgium does not get the much deserved praise for implementing the basics just right.
- tomrod 4y ago
  Firsthand experience: DMV experience comes down to funding. Ohio BMV is basically a pleasure and a joy to visit every time I interacted. Staff was competent, offices were laid out logically, and time to completion was measured in minutes. Texas, on the other hand, funds offices relative to the proportion of tax base in the area (this also disproportionately affects minorities, I've seen). Some areas are like the general Ohio BMV. Others one could reasonably point to and say getting an ID there is so difficult that it must be the goal (like voter suppression). At one of these, I waited over 5 hours in line only to find they skipped my number and wouldn't let me come back. We showed up 1.5 hours before opening and were in the line that wrapped around the block. Wait time after their screwup would have put getting services after closing (i.e. wasn't happening that day). I got lucky the second day I took off of work to get my license changed. But areas with higher tax base (Hebron area in Carollton, TX, part of Austin, TX, etc.) you get in and out quickly. For government services you get what you pay for when you put appropriate monitoring in place.
  - gruez 4y ago
    > Firsthand experience: DMV experience comes down to funding. >you get what you pay for when you put appropriate monitoring in place That's the problem, isn't it? Recall my original comment: >I'm skeptical that waving a "government" wand would magically fix stuff. Sure, we might get the Ohio DMV experience, or the Texas DMV experience. It's not as simple as "nationalize it", and it turns out swimmingly. Given that such a database would have to be federal, you can expect all the federal level politics (eg. fundings/defundings, gridlock, government shutdowns) that go along with it.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Texas is a pretty messed up governance model in general. Whenever you see this kind of incompetence, it always a political issue, as the DMV is a revenue generator. If there's friction involved in paying taxes, it's due to the some stupid political problem. RealID is a huge driver of increased demand for those services. Not only the bullshit around voter suppression and casual racism, but fundamentally areas with more immigrants and more complex documentation needs will take longer to service. Richer areas have a lower demand for services, but county clerks, etc, usually get a piece of the action.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  The DMV example is a poor one, every interaction I've had with their offices were quick, professional and cheap. Compare that to the bureaucracy and scammy nature of of car insurance providers, and it's a night and day difference.
- tjrDL6MjB2Zwwa 4y ago
  That paperwork is for legal risk, there are services out there that allow you to search for anyone's credit report at any time. 3rd party collections companies use them to try and hunt down people, for example. IIRC, a few celebrities have ended up suing such services due to stalkers using them to hunt the celebrities down, so there ARE controls on them, but not typically for your normal person.
djbusby 4y ago
That system would be called "big government" in USA.
- 93po 4y ago
  It's interesting how we justify everything shitty in the US as being part of capitalism without ever examining why we think that's a reasonable justification. I feel like it's a result of tons of red-scare propaganda that still exists in droves to this day.
  - TehCorwiz 4y ago
    When you think about it (and reduce it to a single sentence) “Capitalism” is just economic monarchy where we pay homage to those who h r more than us already.
snerbles 4y ago
Given the OPM breach, I'm not too keen on the competence of governments holding records either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management... > Approximately 22.1 million records were affected, including records related to government employees, other people who had undergone background checks, and their friends and family. > One of the largest breaches of government data in U.S. history, information that was obtained and exfiltrated in the breach included personally identifiable information such as Social Security numbers, as well as names, dates and places of birth, and addresses.

gruez 4y ago

>They have a public credit bureau hosted by the national bank that records all the loans and credit. So basically the same as credit bureaus in the US, but it's a government monopoly? Given how well other government agencies work at least in the US (eg. DMV), I'm skeptical that waving a "government" wand would magically fix stuff. >The data is not for sale to just about any company that is willing to pay for it, the individual has to give permission to share it when they apply for a loan AFAIK that's also the case in the US. When you open a bank account/apply for a credit card, somewhere buried in the terms and conditions is a consent for a credit check. >There isn't such bullshit as in the US where you practically have to push your student to get a credit card "to start building up a credit score." In the US at least, the reason why it's commonly advised for students (and other young adults) to "build credit" is to build up a history of credit usage and repayments. I don't see why the same dynamic wouldn't exist in Belgium. Your own linked article says "Later, it added positive marks as well, allowing “no credit” and “good credit” to be distinguished", which suggests the same dynamic would exist in Belgium.

Semaphor 4y ago
I can only speak of Germany, where we have the equifax-like SCHUFA. > somewhere buried in the terms and conditions is a consent for a credit check. That’s luckily not allowed (as many other burial tactics) and has to be very visible and explicit. Though in the end that doesn’t change much because it’s not as if you have a choice (outside of saying no thanks to the whole thing) > which suggests the same dynamic would exist in Belgium. It doesn’t in Germany. If they don’t know you at all (= no contact with the banking system whatsoever), you are rated higher risk, but just having a bank account for some time is enough to have a good score. Until data protection laws came along, they even charged you to see your own data, nowadays at least you get it free once per year. IMO the biggest differences are the lack of having to "build credit", the incidental lack of an SSN that can be leaked, and the lack of companies allowing someone to wrongly take out a loan in your name and somehow making it your issue instead of theirs.
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  In Belgium, you have National Number which is basically YYMMDD-XXX-CC where YYMMDD is the birth date XXX is the sequence number of a newborn that date or one of the yet unused numbers for foreign-born CC is the mod 97 of 2YYMMDDXXX for those born over 1980 or YYMMDDXXX for the others which means that it is easy to remember and not really a secret, unlike SSN. As a side note, local bank accounts, wire transfer reference numbers, and company numbers also follow the same pattern of 9..10 digits + mod 97. Compared to the Luhn algorithm for checksums used in the rest of ther world, these are a real joy to see and use. With so much fuzz about Estonian digital state, I wonder why Belgium does not get the much deserved praise for implementing the basics just right.
tomrod 4y ago
Firsthand experience: DMV experience comes down to funding. Ohio BMV is basically a pleasure and a joy to visit every time I interacted. Staff was competent, offices were laid out logically, and time to completion was measured in minutes. Texas, on the other hand, funds offices relative to the proportion of tax base in the area (this also disproportionately affects minorities, I've seen). Some areas are like the general Ohio BMV. Others one could reasonably point to and say getting an ID there is so difficult that it must be the goal (like voter suppression). At one of these, I waited over 5 hours in line only to find they skipped my number and wouldn't let me come back. We showed up 1.5 hours before opening and were in the line that wrapped around the block. Wait time after their screwup would have put getting services after closing (i.e. wasn't happening that day). I got lucky the second day I took off of work to get my license changed. But areas with higher tax base (Hebron area in Carollton, TX, part of Austin, TX, etc.) you get in and out quickly. For government services you get what you pay for when you put appropriate monitoring in place.
- gruez 4y ago
  > Firsthand experience: DMV experience comes down to funding. >you get what you pay for when you put appropriate monitoring in place That's the problem, isn't it? Recall my original comment: >I'm skeptical that waving a "government" wand would magically fix stuff. Sure, we might get the Ohio DMV experience, or the Texas DMV experience. It's not as simple as "nationalize it", and it turns out swimmingly. Given that such a database would have to be federal, you can expect all the federal level politics (eg. fundings/defundings, gridlock, government shutdowns) that go along with it.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Texas is a pretty messed up governance model in general. Whenever you see this kind of incompetence, it always a political issue, as the DMV is a revenue generator. If there's friction involved in paying taxes, it's due to the some stupid political problem. RealID is a huge driver of increased demand for those services. Not only the bullshit around voter suppression and casual racism, but fundamentally areas with more immigrants and more complex documentation needs will take longer to service. Richer areas have a lower demand for services, but county clerks, etc, usually get a piece of the action.
heavyset_go 4y ago
The DMV example is a poor one, every interaction I've had with their offices were quick, professional and cheap. Compare that to the bureaucracy and scammy nature of of car insurance providers, and it's a night and day difference.
tjrDL6MjB2Zwwa 4y ago
That paperwork is for legal risk, there are services out there that allow you to search for anyone's credit report at any time. 3rd party collections companies use them to try and hunt down people, for example. IIRC, a few celebrities have ended up suing such services due to stalkers using them to hunt the celebrities down, so there ARE controls on them, but not typically for your normal person.

djbusby 4y ago

That system would be called "big government" in USA.

93po 4y ago
It's interesting how we justify everything shitty in the US as being part of capitalism without ever examining why we think that's a reasonable justification. I feel like it's a result of tons of red-scare propaganda that still exists in droves to this day.
- TehCorwiz 4y ago
  When you think about it (and reduce it to a single sentence) “Capitalism” is just economic monarchy where we pay homage to those who h r more than us already.

snerbles 4y ago

Given the OPM breach, I'm not too keen on the competence of governments holding records either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management... > Approximately 22.1 million records were affected, including records related to government employees, other people who had undergone background checks, and their friends and family. > One of the largest breaches of government data in U.S. history, information that was obtained and exfiltrated in the breach included personally identifiable information such as Social Security numbers, as well as names, dates and places of birth, and addresses.