4 ms·

Yeah no, that's social darwinism. If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then re

by xg15 4y ago

Yeah no, that's social darwinism. If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive. I also don't quite get what exactly you're criticizing. Life has become too easy, which somehow in turn makes life unbearably hard for young men, so they rightfully escape and play videogames? And therefore we should all return to the good old times where a man could seek glory and purpose in war and then (of course) return home to his everloving wife and their 15 children?

lordfrito 4y ago
I'm for sure not criticizing Social Darwinism, just making an observation that those forces are at work here and will eventually judge the fitness of the cultural changes we're making. I do think that the western version of extreme individualism and sexual liberation has led to a fracturing of our American/western family structure. Combined with great abundance which has enabled us to transition from a culture that places value long term stability to one that values immediate gratification. If we don't look deeper than surface level, there seem to be few downsides. But, as data like this shows, the cracks/fractures underneath things are getting larger and harder to ignore. We thought this social change was all upside, no downside. Turns out you can't have your cake and eat it too. There was a time when the average man needed to have a stable job to get an average woman's attention and eventually start a family. That leveled the playfield for young men, and incentivized most of them to help build things, fight wars, and start families. In the past average joe 5/10 stood a decent chance at a decent life. In our current era of selfishness, playing by the rules doesn't guarantee life or mating success. So many average joes prefer escaping into video games and generally checking-out, epidemic of fatherlessness, etc. When in Rome. I do worry that these may be all signs of irreversible western decline, which is not so much a tragedy for me, but is for my children and soon to be grandchildren. I wanted something better for them, but sometimes it feels like we just got something better for ourselves. Lastly, to your point about the fitness of ultra-conservative cultures. Listen, I'm not judging rightness or wrongness here, it's evolution judging based merely on cultural fitness criteria. And you brought it up. Evolutionarily speaking there must be some beneficial mechanism enabling conservative cultures to persist/persevere after all of these millennia. I believe its because it ensures relatively maximal breeding odds spread out amongst largest population, combined with social stability and continuity. And I agree it's can be downright terrible for many people living in it! But it's not about them, it's about survival of the fittest culture. DNA does not care if you are happy, only that it spreads. And at least its better than Spartacism and other brutal ancient cultures that have thankfully died out. Turns out there are worse forms of ultra-conservatism. Please don't take this as me approving of ultra-conservatism, it's evolution doing the judging here and I'm just reporting the facts as I see them. When confronted with data like this, I feel we should all be asking is "Are the cultural changes we are making going to ensure the survival of our culture for our children and our children's children?". Or are we pursuing a cultural dead end (and the chaos that brings) like so many civilizations before us? Ultimately with all the ups and downs I still feel my life is a success story. But I do sense a general cultural decline that suggests my offspring won't have the same opportunities for life, liberty and pursuit of happiness that I did. And that really bothers me. That's my criticism I guess. My son said it best, lately it's everyone for themselves. So why waste energy looking out for your fellow citizens who most certainly aren't looking out for you?
- qwerpy 4y ago
  I have to say I really appreciate you taking the time to put all these thoughts down into words. As a father it captures a lot of what I'm feeling these days. People are quick to attach moralistic judgments onto facts and statistics, but all I care about is what kind of society my kids will grow up in and how I can help them have good lives. Our society does not seem to be incentivizing good behavior or rewarding people who "play by the rules". It seems like a recipe for long-term failure. So should I still teach my kids to play by the rules? Or do I encourage them to do what it takes to win in this new, non-meritocratic world?
  - lordfrito 4y ago
    I feel for you brother. For your kids to be successful, their life strategies have to take into account the environment they're living in. Basic game theory stuff. Play chess, not checkers. The world I was hoping my kids would live in no longer exists, and so those old strategies no longer work. In fact, they put you at a disadvantage. This is why people who "play by the rules" feel left out, disenfranchised, whatever. So, in a world where "bad behavior" gets you ahead, how can one live a good life? And by good I don't mean materially good, but ethically/morally good (which I think is a foundation from which other good things follow). Used to be that prosperity and ethics/morals were more correlated, today not so much. I'd like my children to be prosperous enough to take care of themselves and their families, while also contributing to their communities and fellow citizens (kindness to others, and kindness shown in return). That's a hard prescription to fill these days. So, what strategies can you use in today's environment to maximize your children's chance of building/living in that world? I don't have the answers, but this is the best I've come up with so far and is working for me. - Be kind to others first, in order to quickly determine what kind of person you're dealing with. It serves as a litmus test, trust but verify, etc. If they're decent people they'll show kindness in return. If they don't, then best you find out quickly. At that point you don't owe them kindness, as this is a person that doesn't share the same social contract that you do. Protect yourself from these people as you would protect yourself from an enemy (I said protect, not attack). Continue to show kindness, but on your terms. Cut ties and move on quickly when necessary. Do not lose sleep over people like this, as you are simply a means to an end for them. I tell my kids when you meet people like this do your best to stay out of their way, but don't be afraid to confront when they continue to walk into your crosshairs. It's you or them at that point, and all bets are off. - When you find good people, double down on them. Cut the others out of your personal life, and quickly. This rule also applies to your job. If you're not working for the right kind of people, try to move on as fast as possible. There are good employers out there. - Keep your head down and weather the storm. Bad times come and go. Good times return. - Keep your your mouth closed. Your personal politics are not welcome in the public sphere any longer. Wrongthinking is punished. The more you reveal the more can be weaponized against you. This includes nearly all of day to day social media. I'm breaching my code posting personal stuff here, but this is about the best forum I've found online for honest dialog. - Focus on the small things you can control, don't fret about how your neighbors are living their lives. Appreciate the small joys that your small circle brings to you. - Understand that what you see in the media is a very warped distortion of reality. The media is a spectacle, it does not represent what 99% of day to day life is about. This includes all of social media. Ground yourself by looking outside your window. It's not that bad out there. - Have confidence and believe in the kind of life you are building around you. Don't let the naysayers tear you down. The modern world is powered by FOMO and doubt. Do not allow these attitudes to take root in your life. - You have power over your life and small circle. Do not be afraid to use it. - Through it all, kindness and grace for others whenever possible. Best of luck to you and your family.
anon291 4y ago
> If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive. Broadly speaking, this is true. The west's recent turn to progressivism is new. Formerly, we shared many moral values with Muslims and conservative Hindus. Together, these constitute the large bulk of the world populace.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive. Your dismissive comment would be funny if it wasn't being proven true right now. European people are currently slowly being replaced in some cities in Europe as over half of the newborns are now from middle eastern/Muslim and African immigrant families precisely because in their culture they treat their women as breeding machines that are supposed to sit at home to take care of the kids and house chores while the male is working and providing. You know, exactly like how it was in the west over 70 years ago up till the baby boomer generation. The Europeans of today don't reproduces as much since they pushed women into the traditional male only workforce and the males of today are expected to climb the work ladder even higher than women in order to be seen as a desirable mating partner, while also making the traditional stay-at-home mom taking care of the kids instead of pursuing a career and an independent lifestyle be seen as something shameful and old fashioned for modern European women, leading young Europeans to spend most of their prime reproductive years studying, working and competing for jobs and overpriced housing instead of reproducing, leading to their demographic collapse. So yeah, the ones who reproduce more are surviving, displacing those who don't reproduce. I'm surprised you're trying to argue against such an obvious fact.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  You must really not have any faith in European culture if you think that those half of those newborns are going to grow up to be doctrinaire conservative Muslims
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    And where did I claim that, quote, "those newborns are going to grow up to be doctrinaire conservative Muslims", endquote?
  - lazide 4y ago
    There are already a lot of changes going on in the newer generations in the West - a lot of switching back to more conservative behavior (and expectations), a lot less sex, a lot less social media, etc. Adults are clearly not feeling great right now, and many kids have unmet needs, so their kids are reacting to it by having different preferences. Some will be good and productive, some won’t, lather rinse repeat.

by xg15 4y ago

lordfrito 4y ago

I'm for sure not criticizing Social Darwinism, just making an observation that those forces are at work here and will eventually judge the fitness of the cultural changes we're making. I do think that the western version of extreme individualism and sexual liberation has led to a fracturing of our American/western family structure. Combined with great abundance which has enabled us to transition from a culture that places value long term stability to one that values immediate gratification. If we don't look deeper than surface level, there seem to be few downsides. But, as data like this shows, the cracks/fractures underneath things are getting larger and harder to ignore. We thought this social change was all upside, no downside. Turns out you can't have your cake and eat it too. There was a time when the average man needed to have a stable job to get an average woman's attention and eventually start a family. That leveled the playfield for young men, and incentivized most of them to help build things, fight wars, and start families. In the past average joe 5/10 stood a decent chance at a decent life. In our current era of selfishness, playing by the rules doesn't guarantee life or mating success. So many average joes prefer escaping into video games and generally checking-out, epidemic of fatherlessness, etc. When in Rome. I do worry that these may be all signs of irreversible western decline, which is not so much a tragedy for me, but is for my children and soon to be grandchildren. I wanted something better for them, but sometimes it feels like we just got something better for ourselves. Lastly, to your point about the fitness of ultra-conservative cultures. Listen, I'm not judging rightness or wrongness here, it's evolution judging based merely on cultural fitness criteria. And you brought it up. Evolutionarily speaking there must be some beneficial mechanism enabling conservative cultures to persist/persevere after all of these millennia. I believe its because it ensures relatively maximal breeding odds spread out amongst largest population, combined with social stability and continuity. And I agree it's can be downright terrible for many people living in it! But it's not about them, it's about survival of the fittest culture. DNA does not care if you are happy, only that it spreads. And at least its better than Spartacism and other brutal ancient cultures that have thankfully died out. Turns out there are worse forms of ultra-conservatism. Please don't take this as me approving of ultra-conservatism, it's evolution doing the judging here and I'm just reporting the facts as I see them. When confronted with data like this, I feel we should all be asking is "Are the cultural changes we are making going to ensure the survival of our culture for our children and our children's children?". Or are we pursuing a cultural dead end (and the chaos that brings) like so many civilizations before us? Ultimately with all the ups and downs I still feel my life is a success story. But I do sense a general cultural decline that suggests my offspring won't have the same opportunities for life, liberty and pursuit of happiness that I did. And that really bothers me. That's my criticism I guess. My son said it best, lately it's everyone for themselves. So why waste energy looking out for your fellow citizens who most certainly aren't looking out for you?

qwerpy 4y ago
I have to say I really appreciate you taking the time to put all these thoughts down into words. As a father it captures a lot of what I'm feeling these days. People are quick to attach moralistic judgments onto facts and statistics, but all I care about is what kind of society my kids will grow up in and how I can help them have good lives. Our society does not seem to be incentivizing good behavior or rewarding people who "play by the rules". It seems like a recipe for long-term failure. So should I still teach my kids to play by the rules? Or do I encourage them to do what it takes to win in this new, non-meritocratic world?
- lordfrito 4y ago
  I feel for you brother. For your kids to be successful, their life strategies have to take into account the environment they're living in. Basic game theory stuff. Play chess, not checkers. The world I was hoping my kids would live in no longer exists, and so those old strategies no longer work. In fact, they put you at a disadvantage. This is why people who "play by the rules" feel left out, disenfranchised, whatever. So, in a world where "bad behavior" gets you ahead, how can one live a good life? And by good I don't mean materially good, but ethically/morally good (which I think is a foundation from which other good things follow). Used to be that prosperity and ethics/morals were more correlated, today not so much. I'd like my children to be prosperous enough to take care of themselves and their families, while also contributing to their communities and fellow citizens (kindness to others, and kindness shown in return). That's a hard prescription to fill these days. So, what strategies can you use in today's environment to maximize your children's chance of building/living in that world? I don't have the answers, but this is the best I've come up with so far and is working for me. - Be kind to others first, in order to quickly determine what kind of person you're dealing with. It serves as a litmus test, trust but verify, etc. If they're decent people they'll show kindness in return. If they don't, then best you find out quickly. At that point you don't owe them kindness, as this is a person that doesn't share the same social contract that you do. Protect yourself from these people as you would protect yourself from an enemy (I said protect, not attack). Continue to show kindness, but on your terms. Cut ties and move on quickly when necessary. Do not lose sleep over people like this, as you are simply a means to an end for them. I tell my kids when you meet people like this do your best to stay out of their way, but don't be afraid to confront when they continue to walk into your crosshairs. It's you or them at that point, and all bets are off. - When you find good people, double down on them. Cut the others out of your personal life, and quickly. This rule also applies to your job. If you're not working for the right kind of people, try to move on as fast as possible. There are good employers out there. - Keep your head down and weather the storm. Bad times come and go. Good times return. - Keep your your mouth closed. Your personal politics are not welcome in the public sphere any longer. Wrongthinking is punished. The more you reveal the more can be weaponized against you. This includes nearly all of day to day social media. I'm breaching my code posting personal stuff here, but this is about the best forum I've found online for honest dialog. - Focus on the small things you can control, don't fret about how your neighbors are living their lives. Appreciate the small joys that your small circle brings to you. - Understand that what you see in the media is a very warped distortion of reality. The media is a spectacle, it does not represent what 99% of day to day life is about. This includes all of social media. Ground yourself by looking outside your window. It's not that bad out there. - Have confidence and believe in the kind of life you are building around you. Don't let the naysayers tear you down. The modern world is powered by FOMO and doubt. Do not allow these attitudes to take root in your life. - You have power over your life and small circle. Do not be afraid to use it. - Through it all, kindness and grace for others whenever possible. Best of luck to you and your family.

anon291 4y ago

> If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive. Broadly speaking, this is true. The west's recent turn to progressivism is new. Formerly, we shared many moral values with Muslims and conservative Hindus. Together, these constitute the large bulk of the world populace.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive. Your dismissive comment would be funny if it wasn't being proven true right now. European people are currently slowly being replaced in some cities in Europe as over half of the newborns are now from middle eastern/Muslim and African immigrant families precisely because in their culture they treat their women as breeding machines that are supposed to sit at home to take care of the kids and house chores while the male is working and providing. You know, exactly like how it was in the west over 70 years ago up till the baby boomer generation. The Europeans of today don't reproduces as much since they pushed women into the traditional male only workforce and the males of today are expected to climb the work ladder even higher than women in order to be seen as a desirable mating partner, while also making the traditional stay-at-home mom taking care of the kids instead of pursuing a career and an independent lifestyle be seen as something shameful and old fashioned for modern European women, leading young Europeans to spend most of their prime reproductive years studying, working and competing for jobs and overpriced housing instead of reproducing, leading to their demographic collapse. So yeah, the ones who reproduce more are surviving, displacing those who don't reproduce. I'm surprised you're trying to argue against such an obvious fact.

selimthegrim 4y ago
You must really not have any faith in European culture if you think that those half of those newborns are going to grow up to be doctrinaire conservative Muslims
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  And where did I claim that, quote, "those newborns are going to grow up to be doctrinaire conservative Muslims", endquote?
- lazide 4y ago
  There are already a lot of changes going on in the newer generations in the West - a lot of switching back to more conservative behavior (and expectations), a lot less sex, a lot less social media, etc. Adults are clearly not feeling great right now, and many kids have unmet needs, so their kids are reacting to it by having different preferences. Some will be good and productive, some won’t, lather rinse repeat.