4 ms·

> And frankly, what other options are there? Say "fuck it", let the politicians fight it by themselves, survive, and wave the whatever flag is the winning one

> And frankly, what other options are there? Say "fuck it", let the politicians fight it by themselves, survive, and wave the whatever flag is the winning one in the end. Or let the volunteers fight, preferably in open fields somewhere. Who cares, it's just some lines on the map. If you're bothered by those, you can can still volunteer.

lazide 4y ago
So every Ukrainian should bail because ‘politicians’ and ‘lines’, give up their heritage, their friends and neighbors, and any wealth and property they can’t carry, and hope they make it over another line (defended by people who actually give a damn), before they get shot for existing? Sounds like it would work for a very small subset of the population, and screw (and likely kill) most everyone else. 1) why should anyone else Ukrainian be okay with that, let alone enable it? 2) the reason cowardice is so frowned upon is the wonton selfishness gets a lot of others killed. Brothers, sisters, daughters, sons, parents. If someone is entangled with society, society is going to entangle with them. And anyone who doesn’t like that, is going to find out pretty quickly what the consequences are.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  You're still allowed to fight and go to war... just don't force ME to die for some lines on paper. Yes, I'll gladly take whatever I have and leave instead of dying in a pointless war. Or stay under a new country. And you're free to die for your country if you want.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    It doesn't matter if you're willing to fight and die for some lines on paper, what matters is people are willing to come kill you for possession of those lines.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      Most people including armies don't want to kill you, a civillian. Even more so if you move away for the time of the war and then come back after it's over. The problem is, that your own government won't let you leave, will make you fight (and probably die) and imprison you if you desert.
      - lazide 4y ago
        If you were in Mariupol, or Bakhmut, or Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Stalingrad, it sure didn't matter if you were a civilian or not. And hell, all of Eastern Europe during WW2, it barely mattered. When it did, that might mean 'just' getting shot and pushed into a ditch instead of shot and left on the battlefield. And the reason that societies don't just let folks leave is because the whole is stronger than the parts - and they don’t want you or some other part bailing and getting them all killed. Though sometimes, even that isn’t enough. In the best case, it's the collective good trying to protect itself. In the worst case, it's the controlling parent dragging you down with them. While certainly a survival strategy for an individual to desert, it has heavy costs - and don't expect any friends in those who are left behind.
        ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        > If you were in Mariupol, or Bakhmut, or Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Stalingrad, it sure didn't matter if you were a civilian or not. And hell, all of Eastern Europe during WW2, it barely mattered. When it did, that might mean 'just' getting shot and pushed into a ditch instead of shot and left on the battlefield. Yes, I know, that's why I'd pack and leave... I don't want to live in "a society" that expects me to die for it. > And the reason that societies don't just let folks leave is because the whole is stronger than the parts - and they don’t want you or some other part bailing and getting them all killed. So, they want to use me as a human shield? Sure, another reason to leave. > While certainly a survival strategy for an individual to desert, it has heavy costs - and don't expect any friends in those who are left behind. Who cares, they'll be dead anyway and i'll be alive somewhere far away and safe.

lazide 4y ago

So every Ukrainian should bail because ‘politicians’ and ‘lines’, give up their heritage, their friends and neighbors, and any wealth and property they can’t carry, and hope they make it over another line (defended by people who actually give a damn), before they get shot for existing? Sounds like it would work for a very small subset of the population, and screw (and likely kill) most everyone else. 1) why should anyone else Ukrainian be okay with that, let alone enable it? 2) the reason cowardice is so frowned upon is the wonton selfishness gets a lot of others killed. Brothers, sisters, daughters, sons, parents. If someone is entangled with society, society is going to entangle with them. And anyone who doesn’t like that, is going to find out pretty quickly what the consequences are.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
You're still allowed to fight and go to war... just don't force ME to die for some lines on paper. Yes, I'll gladly take whatever I have and leave instead of dying in a pointless war. Or stay under a new country. And you're free to die for your country if you want.
- pixl97 4y ago
  It doesn't matter if you're willing to fight and die for some lines on paper, what matters is people are willing to come kill you for possession of those lines.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Most people including armies don't want to kill you, a civillian. Even more so if you move away for the time of the war and then come back after it's over. The problem is, that your own government won't let you leave, will make you fight (and probably die) and imprison you if you desert.
    - lazide 4y ago
      If you were in Mariupol, or Bakhmut, or Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Stalingrad, it sure didn't matter if you were a civilian or not. And hell, all of Eastern Europe during WW2, it barely mattered. When it did, that might mean 'just' getting shot and pushed into a ditch instead of shot and left on the battlefield. And the reason that societies don't just let folks leave is because the whole is stronger than the parts - and they don’t want you or some other part bailing and getting them all killed. Though sometimes, even that isn’t enough. In the best case, it's the collective good trying to protect itself. In the worst case, it's the controlling parent dragging you down with them. While certainly a survival strategy for an individual to desert, it has heavy costs - and don't expect any friends in those who are left behind.
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        > If you were in Mariupol, or Bakhmut, or Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Stalingrad, it sure didn't matter if you were a civilian or not. And hell, all of Eastern Europe during WW2, it barely mattered. When it did, that might mean 'just' getting shot and pushed into a ditch instead of shot and left on the battlefield. Yes, I know, that's why I'd pack and leave... I don't want to live in "a society" that expects me to die for it. > And the reason that societies don't just let folks leave is because the whole is stronger than the parts - and they don’t want you or some other part bailing and getting them all killed. So, they want to use me as a human shield? Sure, another reason to leave. > While certainly a survival strategy for an individual to desert, it has heavy costs - and don't expect any friends in those who are left behind. Who cares, they'll be dead anyway and i'll be alive somewhere far away and safe.