5 ms·

> Or maybe this is a win for feminism? I understand this is a passing remark, but I want to answer the question anyway. Feminism is not about making men's liv

> Or maybe this is a win for feminism? I understand this is a passing remark, but I want to answer the question anyway. Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. Men supporting and helping other men benefits feminism and women by challenging traditional gender roles and expectations. In a lot of countries, the cultural norm is for men to be strong, independent and self-sufficient and not to seek help or support from others, especially other men. This creates a culture of toxic masculinity (not all masculinity is toxic, only the toxic kind is problematic). In such a culture men are expected to repress their feelings, hide their vulnerability, and not seek support when they need it, etc. Often, women are expected to fit under the exact opposite (not being allowed to stand alone, expected to be vulnerable and emotional, etc.) as if we were sharing a limited pie and not the potentialy unlimited social world we live in. This is harmful to people of all gender. Breaking down traditional gender roles and expectations and supporting and helping each other is good for everyone. This can also help reduce the stigma and shame that may be associated with men seeking help or support and encourage more men to seek the help and support they need. This in turn can help create a more equitable and just society for all, which is one of the main goals of feminism. I wish the men in my live all had the same kind of emotionally vulnerable relationships I have with the women in my life. I can't begin to imagine how hard and lonely it can be to live in a world that prevent you from connecting freely with others. In my book, anything that makes life harder for men is a loss for feminism.

lordfrito 4y ago
Ultimately feminism or not isn't the point to me. You can't get two people in a room agreeing what feminism is and isn't anymore. No true scotsman etc. So I've given up arguing isms. Whatever it is, we can all agree that society is in flux. Old rules are being thrown away, new and unproven rules are being written. There will victories, losses, and speed bumps along the way. I'm not qualified to judge the goodness or badness of what's happening overall. I have my doubts, but they're mainly just for me as they reflect my personal experience and biases. Society will go on without me (and my generation) regardless of my views. In the end this is civilizations burden, not mine. Still it's good to see stuff like this at least discussed. There was a time you got shot down for merely mentioning that many men have it hard as well.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
> Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. The problem here is, that in many places, we've gone past equality to clear privilige for women (and other groups, that mostly are not young men). In my country women can get a grant every year for 3-5k eur to start a private company. Up until recently they had to work less years until (government) retirement, got higher pensions for the same amount of money paid in (still true), and since they live longer, they get to receive the money for a longer time in average. For same crimes, they get lower punishments, they get priority due to hiring quotas (especially in tech), and in recent times even existential threats are better for women than men (eg. being able to leave a war-torn country or just not get drafted to war). On the other hand, there are many support systems from women, from women-only workshops, places, scolarships, sponsorships, to shelters, support groups and treating mental healt issues way differently than with men. Add to this a lot of media (both social and mainstream) propaganda how (white) men are the problem of the world, how women are better in everything,... How should a young, not very-pretty and not rich men feel in such a society? They're basically worthless if they don't provide for others while being treated as shit by everyone while playing at an uneven playing field. I totally understand that more and more of those men will just say "f*ck everything" and remove themselves from society that doesn't value them.
- alar44 4y ago
  Yeah but women get catcalled sometimes so it evens out.
- Karawebnetwork 4y ago
  > On the other hand, there are many support systems from women, from women-only workshops, places, scolarships, sponsorships, to shelters, support groups and treating mental healt issues way differently than with men. Those do not spawn out of thin air. Groups of people built them. In my region, there are many such projects and when you dig into their origin it's often women who struggled 20 years ago who then landed on their feet and decided to create support networks where there was none. Nothing is stopping you or your community from doing the same, except strict social gender roles which can and have been broken before.
pnf 4y ago
[flagged]
- lordfrito 4y ago
  If Asimov had his way, then AI will rule us by using chatGPT to constructively humor us us while politely letting us win every argument.
- hezralig 4y ago
  Essentially calling someone a NPC or otherwise providing this level of snark goes against the posting guidelines of the site. I would encourage you to reread what the comment guidelines are to enrich the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - pnf 4y ago
    For someone with such low karma you sure are the expert on all things HN. In my humble opinion, only a mindless NPC would think my comparing the erroneous platitudes and baseless claims of the above to an LLM was not appropriate to the spirit of HN. Those guidelines, btw, absolute shit, I'm sorry to say. They degrade the quality of conversation around here by devaluing passionate debate. They explicitly eschew many rhetorical tools of persuasive speech that require art to use effectively, such as sarcasm and irony, in favor of a watered down "niceness" that has no defences against outrageous cultural land grabs. They elevate and give cover to humorless scolds. And, they're written as if the people on here were in 3rd grade. So don't wave that banner at me like it's some kind of win for you. It's not. It's just more hall monitoring. Go tell the teacher or just vote me down and save the sermon for someone who thinks it's bad to say something sarcastic and true.
    - jolmg 4y ago
      > For someone with such low karma [...] You have 129. What are you doing criticizing the karma of others? Karma doesn't matter, they're still right: "Please don't post shallow dismissals" > Those guidelines, btw, absolute shit, I'm sorry to say. They degrade the quality of conversation around here by devaluing passionate debate. No, shallow dismissals like what you did are what devalue debate.
anon291 4y ago
> In a lot of countries, the cultural norm is for men to be strong, independent and self-sufficient and not to seek help or support from others, especially other men This is one of the most bold-faced lies of all times. As evidence against it, I'd point out to you gentlemen's clubs (the real kind, not strip joints) and fraternal organizations such as the Knights of Columbus. These are large, powerful institutions started usually by men to benefit exclusively or almost exclusively men, and to promote fraternity. In these places, men could go to deal with their problems with other men, and not women. Women today often complain that men put their problems on women. This ignores the fact that feminism is often the main driving force behind forcing these organizations to accept females, and thus a prime cause of men no longer having a space to discuss problems with other men.
lazide 4y ago
The challenge of course, is that each person defines it based on what they see and hear, often by accepting or rejecting it, not by making their own nuanced opinion. For most people, they don’t/won’t have any sort of formal education on the topic, or if so, it will be very cursory. Fundamentally, any given person only has so much attention and memory. This means it’s a zero-sum game in many ways. X thing gets more attention, means Y thing gets less. When folks start reacting to things (like feminism or not), they’ll also use unfavorable language to do so, and smear terms to convey often backhanded definitions of things. So at some point, the definition shifts based on how people talk about it/how the media that permeates everyone’s life talks about it, not how it actually is, or even what their personal experience has been like. And there has been a lot of attention/pumping up/putting in folks feeds things that portray total fantasy. Both pro/con feminism, pro/con a lot of things. So it’s not surprising that hardline, not actually helpful ideas get propagated, then reacted to, and lines get formed the way they do, with often little nuance or connection to reality.

lordfrito 4y ago

Ultimately feminism or not isn't the point to me. You can't get two people in a room agreeing what feminism is and isn't anymore. No true scotsman etc. So I've given up arguing isms. Whatever it is, we can all agree that society is in flux. Old rules are being thrown away, new and unproven rules are being written. There will victories, losses, and speed bumps along the way. I'm not qualified to judge the goodness or badness of what's happening overall. I have my doubts, but they're mainly just for me as they reflect my personal experience and biases. Society will go on without me (and my generation) regardless of my views. In the end this is civilizations burden, not mine. Still it's good to see stuff like this at least discussed. There was a time you got shot down for merely mentioning that many men have it hard as well.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

> Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. The problem here is, that in many places, we've gone past equality to clear privilige for women (and other groups, that mostly are not young men). In my country women can get a grant every year for 3-5k eur to start a private company. Up until recently they had to work less years until (government) retirement, got higher pensions for the same amount of money paid in (still true), and since they live longer, they get to receive the money for a longer time in average. For same crimes, they get lower punishments, they get priority due to hiring quotas (especially in tech), and in recent times even existential threats are better for women than men (eg. being able to leave a war-torn country or just not get drafted to war). On the other hand, there are many support systems from women, from women-only workshops, places, scolarships, sponsorships, to shelters, support groups and treating mental healt issues way differently than with men. Add to this a lot of media (both social and mainstream) propaganda how (white) men are the problem of the world, how women are better in everything,... How should a young, not very-pretty and not rich men feel in such a society? They're basically worthless if they don't provide for others while being treated as shit by everyone while playing at an uneven playing field. I totally understand that more and more of those men will just say "f*ck everything" and remove themselves from society that doesn't value them.

alar44 4y ago
Yeah but women get catcalled sometimes so it evens out.
Karawebnetwork 4y ago
> On the other hand, there are many support systems from women, from women-only workshops, places, scolarships, sponsorships, to shelters, support groups and treating mental healt issues way differently than with men. Those do not spawn out of thin air. Groups of people built them. In my region, there are many such projects and when you dig into their origin it's often women who struggled 20 years ago who then landed on their feet and decided to create support networks where there was none. Nothing is stopping you or your community from doing the same, except strict social gender roles which can and have been broken before.

pnf 4y ago

[flagged]

lordfrito 4y ago
If Asimov had his way, then AI will rule us by using chatGPT to constructively humor us us while politely letting us win every argument.
hezralig 4y ago
Essentially calling someone a NPC or otherwise providing this level of snark goes against the posting guidelines of the site. I would encourage you to reread what the comment guidelines are to enrich the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- pnf 4y ago
  For someone with such low karma you sure are the expert on all things HN. In my humble opinion, only a mindless NPC would think my comparing the erroneous platitudes and baseless claims of the above to an LLM was not appropriate to the spirit of HN. Those guidelines, btw, absolute shit, I'm sorry to say. They degrade the quality of conversation around here by devaluing passionate debate. They explicitly eschew many rhetorical tools of persuasive speech that require art to use effectively, such as sarcasm and irony, in favor of a watered down "niceness" that has no defences against outrageous cultural land grabs. They elevate and give cover to humorless scolds. And, they're written as if the people on here were in 3rd grade. So don't wave that banner at me like it's some kind of win for you. It's not. It's just more hall monitoring. Go tell the teacher or just vote me down and save the sermon for someone who thinks it's bad to say something sarcastic and true.
  - jolmg 4y ago
    > For someone with such low karma [...] You have 129. What are you doing criticizing the karma of others? Karma doesn't matter, they're still right: "Please don't post shallow dismissals" > Those guidelines, btw, absolute shit, I'm sorry to say. They degrade the quality of conversation around here by devaluing passionate debate. No, shallow dismissals like what you did are what devalue debate.

anon291 4y ago

> In a lot of countries, the cultural norm is for men to be strong, independent and self-sufficient and not to seek help or support from others, especially other men This is one of the most bold-faced lies of all times. As evidence against it, I'd point out to you gentlemen's clubs (the real kind, not strip joints) and fraternal organizations such as the Knights of Columbus. These are large, powerful institutions started usually by men to benefit exclusively or almost exclusively men, and to promote fraternity. In these places, men could go to deal with their problems with other men, and not women. Women today often complain that men put their problems on women. This ignores the fact that feminism is often the main driving force behind forcing these organizations to accept females, and thus a prime cause of men no longer having a space to discuss problems with other men.

lazide 4y ago

The challenge of course, is that each person defines it based on what they see and hear, often by accepting or rejecting it, not by making their own nuanced opinion. For most people, they don’t/won’t have any sort of formal education on the topic, or if so, it will be very cursory. Fundamentally, any given person only has so much attention and memory. This means it’s a zero-sum game in many ways. X thing gets more attention, means Y thing gets less. When folks start reacting to things (like feminism or not), they’ll also use unfavorable language to do so, and smear terms to convey often backhanded definitions of things. So at some point, the definition shifts based on how people talk about it/how the media that permeates everyone’s life talks about it, not how it actually is, or even what their personal experience has been like. And there has been a lot of attention/pumping up/putting in folks feeds things that portray total fantasy. Both pro/con feminism, pro/con a lot of things. So it’s not surprising that hardline, not actually helpful ideas get propagated, then reacted to, and lines get formed the way they do, with often little nuance or connection to reality.