4 ms·

I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to cha

by epups 4y ago

I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to change your tire. But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? The fact that we are working towards a more equal society is not only a win for feminism, it is a win for humanity. Civilization has historically been built by men, as you say, because we used to believe that women were incapable of contributing equally. A big mistake, and a huge waste of potential talent.

mint2 4y ago
This comment leaves out a major important point. In the original comment, calling out the troubles of men as a win for feminism is a totally wrong premise. It was also an offhand remark at the end and really took away from the commment. feminism is unrelated to creating those cited difficulties and actually try to solve some of them. The troubles described sounded more like the product of rising inequality, reduced union sway, and growing power of the corporate machine. Some also sounded like products of unhealthy machoism in society where “real men” are expected to be 100% self reliant and always do things like change their own tires
- lordfrito 4y ago
  Ugh I wasn't calling out feminism, just saying it's one way to look at it. As if maybe if you buy into that notion, and if you think that's the goal, then maybe the outcome is a good thing. A transitional thing between where we were and someplace better. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't have answers.
- pnf 4y ago
  Real men do change their own tires. As it should be. That's not unhealthy machismo, it's the healthy kind.
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    Some men change their own tires. Some men call AAA when they get a flat. Some women change their own tires. Some women call AAA when they get a flat. All of these people are real.
    - pnf 4y ago
      Yes, they are all real people but masculinity means changing your own tires unless old or otherwise enfeebled. Otherwise being a man or a woman means nothing but chromosome delivery mechanisms.
      - UncleOxidant 4y ago
        > but masculinity means changing your own tires Does it? Does it also mean not cooking & cleaning? Never crying? Watching sports? Not changing diapers? Never eating quiche?
        pnf 4y ago
        I've seen plenty of male chefs so not sure what you're getting at. It's not about not doing something, it's about doing something when you can. No man should shy away from changing a diaper or cleaning. What are you even talking about?
        majkinetor 4y ago
        Sounds about right, but when you reverse that, why wouldn't woman do something that she can? Judging from experience, mostly man do that.
      - mint2 4y ago
        Want the brain surgeon operating on your loved one with his hands later in the day to change his own tire in the snow on the way to the hospital or do you want him to call aaa? Btw the lug nuts are stuck and will need substantial persuading. And it’s on the side of a busy road. Seems extreme to think that guy should change his own tire.
vinyl7 4y ago
The problem is with basic male-female relationship dynamics within the concept of marriage/family. Women are attracted to wealth and status, men are attracted to appearances. Now that women can build a career equal to men, not only do they find those men unattractive...they really have no need for a man, aside from procreation. With how expensive everything is getting, and requiring both couples to work full time careers just to be able afford a home, its just not manageable to bring children into the picture for most people. Forget about day care which costs $1500 a month. What we're seeing and will see more of is demographic changes similar to china where there are more elderly people and not enough young people to take over and care for the elderly. Beyond demographic changes, there is something behind men needing a family to take care of that makes him have worth and gives him something to keep working for. Being a career slave for nothing is probably a big part of the suicide rate among men
- lordfrito 4y ago
  > Women are attracted to wealth and status, men are attracted to appearances I will say this, before a certain point in my life I figured we were purely products of nurture. I tried to change values/motivations that I was biologically programmed with. When you're young you listen to the various voices all around you. Things didn't really work out until I began to realize that there's a lot of nature in us, and that can't be changed. We have to accept it and move on. I was fighting myself for the longest time and didn't know it. I thought I was trying to change the world, but really I was just refusing to accept myself. I no longer apologize for what I am, and I no longer try to change my partner. I try to be a kindler, gentler version of myself. More grace for myself, more grace for others. We are what we are. Life got a lot a easier once I accepted that.
- WhiteBlueSkies 4y ago
  >The problem is with basic male-female relationship dynamics within the concept of marriage/family. Women are attracted to wealth and status, men are attracted to appearances. No, this is not true. Women are attracted to apparences now more than ever. Good looks is extremely important. >Being a career slave for nothing is probably a big part of the suicide rate among men Why for nothing, at least we get paid to work.
lordfrito 4y ago
Yeah listen I wasn't blaming feminism, it was more of an open question or alternate perspective on the matter. There is a difference between causation and correlation. Just sharing one man's perspective, which is all I have really. Which I thought I made clear, but this is online discourse so I guess I need to clarify. I could list 100 things I've experienced as a young man that led me to my conclusions, but I'm not here to win an argument. I don't have the answers. It's the questions that matter. I'm just trying to contribute perspective to the conversation.
anon291 4y ago
> But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? Realistically, most people with power are not satisfied. True satisfaction is in feeling you are a valued member of the community, whether a janitor or a real estate magnate or corporate CEO of a tech company.
ithkuil 4y ago
I agree that shouldn't be a zero sum game. Yet, there are undoubtedly forces at play it that cause a significant fraction of men to feel disfranchised. We can blame that to reactionary forces, to the last blows of patriarchy, but ultimately it's a real issue and unless we find a way to communicate across the ever deeper chasm the situation can only get more serious.
- lazide 4y ago
  Japan and NEET culture seems like a useful, extreme, example.

by epups 4y ago

mint2 4y ago

This comment leaves out a major important point. In the original comment, calling out the troubles of men as a win for feminism is a totally wrong premise. It was also an offhand remark at the end and really took away from the commment. feminism is unrelated to creating those cited difficulties and actually try to solve some of them. The troubles described sounded more like the product of rising inequality, reduced union sway, and growing power of the corporate machine. Some also sounded like products of unhealthy machoism in society where “real men” are expected to be 100% self reliant and always do things like change their own tires

lordfrito 4y ago
Ugh I wasn't calling out feminism, just saying it's one way to look at it. As if maybe if you buy into that notion, and if you think that's the goal, then maybe the outcome is a good thing. A transitional thing between where we were and someplace better. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't have answers.
pnf 4y ago
Real men do change their own tires. As it should be. That's not unhealthy machismo, it's the healthy kind.
- UncleOxidant 4y ago
  Some men change their own tires. Some men call AAA when they get a flat. Some women change their own tires. Some women call AAA when they get a flat. All of these people are real.
  - pnf 4y ago
    Yes, they are all real people but masculinity means changing your own tires unless old or otherwise enfeebled. Otherwise being a man or a woman means nothing but chromosome delivery mechanisms.
    - UncleOxidant 4y ago
      > but masculinity means changing your own tires Does it? Does it also mean not cooking & cleaning? Never crying? Watching sports? Not changing diapers? Never eating quiche?
      - pnf 4y ago
        I've seen plenty of male chefs so not sure what you're getting at. It's not about not doing something, it's about doing something when you can. No man should shy away from changing a diaper or cleaning. What are you even talking about?
        majkinetor 4y ago
        Sounds about right, but when you reverse that, why wouldn't woman do something that she can? Judging from experience, mostly man do that.
    - mint2 4y ago
      Want the brain surgeon operating on your loved one with his hands later in the day to change his own tire in the snow on the way to the hospital or do you want him to call aaa? Btw the lug nuts are stuck and will need substantial persuading. And it’s on the side of a busy road. Seems extreme to think that guy should change his own tire.

vinyl7 4y ago

The problem is with basic male-female relationship dynamics within the concept of marriage/family. Women are attracted to wealth and status, men are attracted to appearances. Now that women can build a career equal to men, not only do they find those men unattractive...they really have no need for a man, aside from procreation. With how expensive everything is getting, and requiring both couples to work full time careers just to be able afford a home, its just not manageable to bring children into the picture for most people. Forget about day care which costs $1500 a month. What we're seeing and will see more of is demographic changes similar to china where there are more elderly people and not enough young people to take over and care for the elderly. Beyond demographic changes, there is something behind men needing a family to take care of that makes him have worth and gives him something to keep working for. Being a career slave for nothing is probably a big part of the suicide rate among men

lordfrito 4y ago
> Women are attracted to wealth and status, men are attracted to appearances I will say this, before a certain point in my life I figured we were purely products of nurture. I tried to change values/motivations that I was biologically programmed with. When you're young you listen to the various voices all around you. Things didn't really work out until I began to realize that there's a lot of nature in us, and that can't be changed. We have to accept it and move on. I was fighting myself for the longest time and didn't know it. I thought I was trying to change the world, but really I was just refusing to accept myself. I no longer apologize for what I am, and I no longer try to change my partner. I try to be a kindler, gentler version of myself. More grace for myself, more grace for others. We are what we are. Life got a lot a easier once I accepted that.
WhiteBlueSkies 4y ago
>The problem is with basic male-female relationship dynamics within the concept of marriage/family. Women are attracted to wealth and status, men are attracted to appearances. No, this is not true. Women are attracted to apparences now more than ever. Good looks is extremely important. >Being a career slave for nothing is probably a big part of the suicide rate among men Why for nothing, at least we get paid to work.

lordfrito 4y ago

Yeah listen I wasn't blaming feminism, it was more of an open question or alternate perspective on the matter. There is a difference between causation and correlation. Just sharing one man's perspective, which is all I have really. Which I thought I made clear, but this is online discourse so I guess I need to clarify. I could list 100 things I've experienced as a young man that led me to my conclusions, but I'm not here to win an argument. I don't have the answers. It's the questions that matter. I'm just trying to contribute perspective to the conversation.

anon291 4y ago

> But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? Realistically, most people with power are not satisfied. True satisfaction is in feeling you are a valued member of the community, whether a janitor or a real estate magnate or corporate CEO of a tech company.

ithkuil 4y ago

I agree that shouldn't be a zero sum game. Yet, there are undoubtedly forces at play it that cause a significant fraction of men to feel disfranchised. We can blame that to reactionary forces, to the last blows of patriarchy, but ultimately it's a real issue and unless we find a way to communicate across the ever deeper chasm the situation can only get more serious.

lazide 4y ago
Japan and NEET culture seems like a useful, extreme, example.