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My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help without being asked. I'm 51 now, and I understand why more and more men are checking out. The grind isn't worth it. There's a reward system in play here, you grind at life and are rewarded. Grind in school and you graduate. Grind more and you get a degree. Grind more and you get a family and career and some big toys. It seems that the amount of grinding men have to do is increasing, and the net rewards society bestows seem to be decreasing. I won't get into a shouting match on what the problems men experience are, you can fill in the blanks with your own experiences and biases, but all the men I know seem to agree that there seems to be less of an upside to sacrificing for the greater good than there used to be. As a middle aged man strangers I meet expect the worst from me, why should I try? As an alternative you can spend your hours grinding away at video games and leveling up. And the games are getting better every year. It seems to me that many young men are finding leveling up in games is simply more rewarding than leveling up in real life. I wish it weren't so, but here we are. Historically speaking, civilization is built and defended largely on the backs of young men. When they check out, it can't be a net good for the trajectory of society. Or maybe this is a win for feminism? Women finally have work equality and so men don't have to work as hard anymore. I don't have answers. But the trend has been clear for a long while.

Karawebnetwork 4y ago
> Or maybe this is a win for feminism? I understand this is a passing remark, but I want to answer the question anyway. Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. Men supporting and helping other men benefits feminism and women by challenging traditional gender roles and expectations. In a lot of countries, the cultural norm is for men to be strong, independent and self-sufficient and not to seek help or support from others, especially other men. This creates a culture of toxic masculinity (not all masculinity is toxic, only the toxic kind is problematic). In such a culture men are expected to repress their feelings, hide their vulnerability, and not seek support when they need it, etc. Often, women are expected to fit under the exact opposite (not being allowed to stand alone, expected to be vulnerable and emotional, etc.) as if we were sharing a limited pie and not the potentialy unlimited social world we live in. This is harmful to people of all gender. Breaking down traditional gender roles and expectations and supporting and helping each other is good for everyone. This can also help reduce the stigma and shame that may be associated with men seeking help or support and encourage more men to seek the help and support they need. This in turn can help create a more equitable and just society for all, which is one of the main goals of feminism. I wish the men in my live all had the same kind of emotionally vulnerable relationships I have with the women in my life. I can't begin to imagine how hard and lonely it can be to live in a world that prevent you from connecting freely with others. In my book, anything that makes life harder for men is a loss for feminism.
- lordfrito 4y ago
  Ultimately feminism or not isn't the point to me. You can't get two people in a room agreeing what feminism is and isn't anymore. No true scotsman etc. So I've given up arguing isms. Whatever it is, we can all agree that society is in flux. Old rules are being thrown away, new and unproven rules are being written. There will victories, losses, and speed bumps along the way. I'm not qualified to judge the goodness or badness of what's happening overall. I have my doubts, but they're mainly just for me as they reflect my personal experience and biases. Society will go on without me (and my generation) regardless of my views. In the end this is civilizations burden, not mine. Still it's good to see stuff like this at least discussed. There was a time you got shot down for merely mentioning that many men have it hard as well.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  > Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. The problem here is, that in many places, we've gone past equality to clear privilige for women (and other groups, that mostly are not young men). In my country women can get a grant every year for 3-5k eur to start a private company. Up until recently they had to work less years until (government) retirement, got higher pensions for the same amount of money paid in (still true), and since they live longer, they get to receive the money for a longer time in average. For same crimes, they get lower punishments, they get priority due to hiring quotas (especially in tech), and in recent times even existential threats are better for women than men (eg. being able to leave a war-torn country or just not get drafted to war). On the other hand, there are many support systems from women, from women-only workshops, places, scolarships, sponsorships, to shelters, support groups and treating mental healt issues way differently than with men. Add to this a lot of media (both social and mainstream) propaganda how (white) men are the problem of the world, how women are better in everything,... How should a young, not very-pretty and not rich men feel in such a society? They're basically worthless if they don't provide for others while being treated as shit by everyone while playing at an uneven playing field. I totally understand that more and more of those men will just say "f*ck everything" and remove themselves from society that doesn't value them.
joeman1000 4y ago
I’m really feeling this. I’m 26 and have noticed that I’m chopped liver in terms of hiring/recruiting. Also same for life in general. I feel a bit ‘fucked over’
hanoz 4y ago
Young men always did fend for themselves, but I don't think it's right say they were left to. More like they were let to do the fending that came naturally to them, fending for themselves and their families, and generally being the apex of human potential in terms of physical and mental ability. The difference now is that they are actively stifled and suppressed by society, and from a young age, much to the detriment of all concerned.
- lordfrito 4y ago
  Yes, this, and also there used to be a sense of "we're all in it together". Not so much anymore.
WhiteBlueSkies 4y ago
>As a middle aged man strangers I meet expect the worst from me, why should I try? Is there something in your appearance which intimidates people?
- bsuvc 4y ago
  Would you ask this of a woman? Why do you assume there is something wrong with OP's appearance, and that it is OP's fault if someone doesn't like how he looks? Because he is a man?
  - WhiteBlueSkies 4y ago
    You are getting too defensive, I don't mean anything bad by it nor do I suggest that something is wrong with him because of his gender. The reason I asked is because 99/100 this is fixable. The vast majority of people don't assume only the worst from middle aged men. The reason he mentioned that in particular could also mean that a lot of the anxiety is caused by depression and does not reflect the reality.
- lordfrito 4y ago
  Oh boy this question is a hornets nest, but I'll poke it. Of course it's how I come across. If I looked and acted like Tom Cruise I'm sure first impressions would be much different. That's what this is about by the way, first impressions, and only first impressions. We're talking about pre-judgment. We're talking about people assuming I'm something that I'm not. We're talking about stereotypes. You know, cultural stereotypes. Let me lead this hornets nest with this: I'm trying to be honest and constructive here. I could use outside perspective, as I can only see my situation from within. I've done a lot of thinking on this over the years, asking myself "What is it about the first impression that I'm trying to overcome?" and "What is it I need/want to change?" As near as I can tell it's because I am (and come across as) a fairly successful, put together, middle aged white man. And my gut tells me that this is because this specific combination of stereotypes "triggers" a common set of automatic defensive mechanisms in people. And so they expect the worst from me out of the gate. Being a strange man immediately paints you as threat in the eyes of a significant percentage of women. My experience is that you only have one thing on your mind, that you're lying to them to get something etc. When asked why I've been told this straight up by women. I feel bad for what they must have experienced, but I'm still being pre-judged. The "middle aged guy" part is pretty self explanatory, I represent the old guard, the old flawed thoughts, the patriarchy. If you see me as out of touch, then I'm part of the problem, and so of course you're going to take a defensive posture, maybe even try and set me straight. Being "put together", people automatically assume you're the successful jerk type that steps on people etc. I'm not showy or in your face, but I do have a certain confident presence. I've been told it's intimidating. Combine that with some likely buried envy and resentment towards achievement, and it makes you an easy target for classist angst. You know, Occupy Wall St. types. I'm not saying that I'm all that, but dang if there aren't a ton of people that subconsciously want to pull you down a peg or two. Being a white man falls into the current "white man patriarchy bad" trope which is all the rage in Hollywood these days. A year or so ago I was watching a movie (I forget which) with a girl I was seeing that had your standard rich entitled white guy villain you just love to hate on, and the usual group of brave underrepresented people fighting back. At one point during a scene with the evil white guy, she said out loud "You know I'm starting to hate white men". Mind you, this was coming from a white/Jewish woman! I looked at her and was like "Whoa, really? That's kind of offensive as I'm a white man". She said it wasn't about me, which of course it wasn't, but clearly there are significant subconscious cultural forces at play here. As an aside: I swear the Hollywood types are the biggest sexists/racists out there, because they literally cast roles to match pre-conceived race/gender stereotypes. Strong/smart/pretty white woman here, oppressed minority who wont back down there, smart Asian over here. Middle aged white guys have been relegated to harmless "Tim the Tool Man Taylor" idiot types, fat balding police types, or entitled rich dudes. I guess I fall into the latter. sigh Combine all these things together and yeah, I'm sure it's intimidating on many levels. People don't see me, they see a strawman, the kind our current social climate says "here's the problem". I get this the worst from customer service rep types, who really don't care if someone like me is having a bad day and just needs help. So much time spent trying to overcome these barriers. I'm not saying woe is me. I know how I come across is my problem. My original comment was just pointing out society doesn't look out for young men. These attitudes I see say more about persistent cultural stereotypes against men than they do about me. Lastly, yes I'm aware that I also hold these stereotypes, that's why they sting! I can't tell where their stereotype ends, and my presumption of a stereotype from their side begins. But the distrust is real. Please be constructive here, outside perspective on this is good. I can only see my situation from within.
anon291 4y ago
'Society' isn't a homogeneous thing. You describe common American society, but there are both subcultures in America as well as foreign cultures, who may or may not have the problem you describe. > Or maybe this is a win for feminism? Women finally have work equality and so men don't have to work as hard anymore. That stops working the moment young men from a subculture or from a foreign culture decide to work hard at taking over your society. This isn't a moral judgement, or even a warning, just an analysis of what happens historically.
- lordfrito 4y ago
  > 'Society' isn't a homogeneous thing. That's probably part of the problem. Subcultures are great, but they aren't the dominant culture. If you get too many subcultures, you start to dilute/fracture your primary culture. The center cannot hold. That's what we're going through now. Alternately, if a single subculture gets too large it simply takes over, that or as you said, we simply get conquered by an outside culture. The primary culture is the big rules that we mostly agree to conform to (if not all of them, certainly the parts necessary to survive). I pay my bills on time, etc. Heck there are some of us now arguing we shouldn't pay our mortgages, that'd show those fat cats on Wall Street, etc. So this is the problem: Our culture is fracturing. We can't even agree (if you believe what you see in the media) as to how to get along anymore. The fall of empires is basically a long unchecked decline into cultural irrelevance, followed by some final economic/political collapse or territorial take-over. Go to any third world country, the cultures are mostly brutal. People taking advantage of each other. (I'm sure someone will argue it's somehow the West's fault these countries stink, same people that argue it's the West's fault Russians are killing Ukrainians, but I digress). There's a reason the 419 scams are coming from poor places. These are desperate people that have no problem treating strangers badly. Try living in that culture. No one cares. It's everyone for themselves. This is what cultural irrelevance looks like. Young men checking out isn't a problem, it's a symptom of the problem. People are checking out and going their own way. And if you buy into the philosophy of extreme individualism, isn't this a victory? If we can accommodate a person demanding to be referred to as xie/yo/ze/ve, can't we accommodate those of us who simply don't want to show up to the party anymore? If people have a problem with men checking out, that's their problem. It seems to me the men checking out are enjoying themselves. When in Rome, right? Or maybe it's time to start pulling men back into the national discussion, adding their perspective into the dialog about what a "fair" and "just" society should look like. You know, don't we want a real diversity of viewpoints? Or are these men part of the "intolerable" that the left argues it's ok to not tolerate? If you're not willing to engage them, then at least leave them alone in their basements to play their games. They're not bothering anybody.
sangnoir 4y ago
> I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help without being asked. Could this be because a 20 yo woman was would be seen as helpless? Women are generally viewed by society as less physically threatening. Additionally, the lizard brain of heterosexual males will bias them towards stopping for a damsel in distress, even when the chances of reproduction are minuscule. All these factors are pretty in opposition to feminism > It seems that the amount of grinding men have to do is increasing, and the net rewards society bestows seem to be decreasing. Disaffected young men are a tale as long as time; few revolutions would have been successful without them, and they make voluntary armies possible. > Or maybe this is a win for feminism? Feminism will win when the average driver reckons a 20 y.o. woman is equally likely to bludgeon them in cold blood with a tire iron as a 20 y.o. man.
- lordfrito 4y ago
  > Could this be because a 20 yo woman was would be seen as helpless? Maybe. But it's the practical outcome that I'm talking about. Women are often offered help. Men aren't. To me this seems a more detrimental situation for a man than a women. Not sure how this is being spun as a negative for women. Or is the point Feminisim is trying to make "Stop helping me, I'm not helpless"? They don't want our help? This doesn't jibe with my experience. Or is a right-thinking male supposed to say "Feels great when I can't get help, because people don't assume I'm helpless"? Sorry, this seems like a pretty crappy world to live in. I personally know several women who manipulate like this to their advantage. I mean two of them have literally told me that they're being manipulative of these attitudes to get things they want from strangers. A young feminist family member recently told me she plays dumb sometimes to get men to do things for her, because since men already think she is stupid (her words) they deserve getting manipulated. When someone tells you they're being manipulative, believe them. I'm not judging all women, but some of what I've seen ain't right. And listen, I'm not here to rag on women or women's issues. That's an entirely different subject. My original comment is that the problems of men are largely ignored by society.
vagrantJin 4y ago
I think most societies throughout history have had the same intuition about young men. Quite recently the Ukraine was drafting young men. If they decided to check out en-masse, there would be no country called Ukraine anymore. Society is a fragile thing.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  > If they decided to check out en-masse They are literally forbidden to leave the country (only men, 18-60yo, with some exceptions [0]). It's not men choosing not to check-out, it's literally men being forced to die for a piece of land they might not even care for. [0] https://visitukraine.today/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-can-leave-ukraine-under-martial-law https://visitukraine.today/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-ca...
  - lazide 4y ago
    It is society trying to protect and sustain itself. And frankly, what other options are there?
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      > And frankly, what other options are there? Say "fuck it", let the politicians fight it by themselves, survive, and wave the whatever flag is the winning one in the end. Or let the volunteers fight, preferably in open fields somewhere. Who cares, it's just some lines on the map. If you're bothered by those, you can can still volunteer.
      - lazide 4y ago
        So every Ukrainian should bail because ‘politicians’ and ‘lines’, give up their heritage, their friends and neighbors, and any wealth and property they can’t carry, and hope they make it over another line (defended by people who actually give a damn), before they get shot for existing? Sounds like it would work for a very small subset of the population, and screw (and likely kill) most everyone else. 1) why should anyone else Ukrainian be okay with that, let alone enable it? 2) the reason cowardice is so frowned upon is the wonton selfishness gets a lot of others killed. Brothers, sisters, daughters, sons, parents. If someone is entangled with society, society is going to entangle with them. And anyone who doesn’t like that, is going to find out pretty quickly what the consequences are.
fxtentacle 4y ago
I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practice. But without a way to check the statistics, people still kind of believed in them. With the access to information that we have now, that is changing and so people are checking out when they notice that the structure of society is stacked against them. I mean it always has been, but without the internet people didn't notice it so clearly. And yes, I also believe that feminism might play a role, but more on the demand side: Nowadays, it is not mandatory anymore for the man to have a good enough job to feed the family, because double-income-households have become the norm. Back in the days where typically only the man would be the breadwinner, there was probably a stronger psychological pressure for men to deliver. I'm not sure if the absence of that nagging is good or bad, but it sure changed in the past 50 years.
- lordfrito 4y ago
  It's all about the social contract. Which is largely culturally dependent. Society may have never cared about young men, but (as someone else said here) the old contract with men here was build and fight wars and monogamy is enforced most will get the opportunity to raise their own family. As I get older I realize that evolution is less about me and my DNA and more about the cultural DNA of civilization. There's individual nature, there's cultural nurture, and they combine at scale to create what we call civilization. Man may be a magnificent machine, but that pales in comparison to the complexities and intricacies of civilization as a whole. I marvel that every ~80 years the entire planet is simply handed to and managed by a whole new group of humans. Not just that, but the transition is handled with almost seamless continuity. It boggles the mind. What is civilization as a whole? Merely a bunch of different cultures, competing for resources to breed, and passing on different values to their offspring, and combining with other cultures to form new combinations and mutations. I believe in survival of the fittest culture is what drives civilization. Few cultures are successful, and those that are don't stay that way forever. Turning the pages of history we see great cultures rise and fall. The best parts of our culture will be absorbed by others, some will be lost to time. It's not a question of "will the west fall?" it's a question of "when and how will the west fall?". The times are a changin'. They've always been a changin'. Ascribing to this worldview, I posit that the cultures that are the most fit long term are the ones that have the best/happiest productive outcome for everyone across society, and encourage/reward breeding and family building to ensure continuity. If true, then cultures that don't value productive young men (and women!) will find themselves conquered or outbred by those that do. As someone mentioned here, Ukraine is going to stand or fall on the backs of it's young soldiers. We are watching the turning of history. edit: I'm not saying only men need to be valued, but that the cultural value of men is what is being discussed here. The rise and fall of cultures is a good thing for civilization on the whole. DNA doesn't care about your happiness, it just wants to make more humans. Happiness has to be pursued on your own time. It was never really about us to begin with.
epups 4y ago
I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to change your tire. But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? The fact that we are working towards a more equal society is not only a win for feminism, it is a win for humanity. Civilization has historically been built by men, as you say, because we used to believe that women were incapable of contributing equally. A big mistake, and a huge waste of potential talent.
- mint2 4y ago
  This comment leaves out a major important point. In the original comment, calling out the troubles of men as a win for feminism is a totally wrong premise. It was also an offhand remark at the end and really took away from the commment. feminism is unrelated to creating those cited difficulties and actually try to solve some of them. The troubles described sounded more like the product of rising inequality, reduced union sway, and growing power of the corporate machine. Some also sounded like products of unhealthy machoism in society where “real men” are expected to be 100% self reliant and always do things like change their own tires
  - lordfrito 4y ago
    Ugh I wasn't calling out feminism, just saying it's one way to look at it. As if maybe if you buy into that notion, and if you think that's the goal, then maybe the outcome is a good thing. A transitional thing between where we were and someplace better. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't have answers.
  - pnf 4y ago
    Real men do change their own tires. As it should be. That's not unhealthy machismo, it's the healthy kind.
    - UncleOxidant 4y ago
      Some men change their own tires. Some men call AAA when they get a flat. Some women change their own tires. Some women call AAA when they get a flat. All of these people are real.

Karawebnetwork 4y ago

> Or maybe this is a win for feminism? I understand this is a passing remark, but I want to answer the question anyway. Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. Men supporting and helping other men benefits feminism and women by challenging traditional gender roles and expectations. In a lot of countries, the cultural norm is for men to be strong, independent and self-sufficient and not to seek help or support from others, especially other men. This creates a culture of toxic masculinity (not all masculinity is toxic, only the toxic kind is problematic). In such a culture men are expected to repress their feelings, hide their vulnerability, and not seek support when they need it, etc. Often, women are expected to fit under the exact opposite (not being allowed to stand alone, expected to be vulnerable and emotional, etc.) as if we were sharing a limited pie and not the potentialy unlimited social world we live in. This is harmful to people of all gender. Breaking down traditional gender roles and expectations and supporting and helping each other is good for everyone. This can also help reduce the stigma and shame that may be associated with men seeking help or support and encourage more men to seek the help and support they need. This in turn can help create a more equitable and just society for all, which is one of the main goals of feminism. I wish the men in my live all had the same kind of emotionally vulnerable relationships I have with the women in my life. I can't begin to imagine how hard and lonely it can be to live in a world that prevent you from connecting freely with others. In my book, anything that makes life harder for men is a loss for feminism.

lordfrito 4y ago
Ultimately feminism or not isn't the point to me. You can't get two people in a room agreeing what feminism is and isn't anymore. No true scotsman etc. So I've given up arguing isms. Whatever it is, we can all agree that society is in flux. Old rules are being thrown away, new and unproven rules are being written. There will victories, losses, and speed bumps along the way. I'm not qualified to judge the goodness or badness of what's happening overall. I have my doubts, but they're mainly just for me as they reflect my personal experience and biases. Society will go on without me (and my generation) regardless of my views. In the end this is civilizations burden, not mine. Still it's good to see stuff like this at least discussed. There was a time you got shot down for merely mentioning that many men have it hard as well.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
> Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. The problem here is, that in many places, we've gone past equality to clear privilige for women (and other groups, that mostly are not young men). In my country women can get a grant every year for 3-5k eur to start a private company. Up until recently they had to work less years until (government) retirement, got higher pensions for the same amount of money paid in (still true), and since they live longer, they get to receive the money for a longer time in average. For same crimes, they get lower punishments, they get priority due to hiring quotas (especially in tech), and in recent times even existential threats are better for women than men (eg. being able to leave a war-torn country or just not get drafted to war). On the other hand, there are many support systems from women, from women-only workshops, places, scolarships, sponsorships, to shelters, support groups and treating mental healt issues way differently than with men. Add to this a lot of media (both social and mainstream) propaganda how (white) men are the problem of the world, how women are better in everything,... How should a young, not very-pretty and not rich men feel in such a society? They're basically worthless if they don't provide for others while being treated as shit by everyone while playing at an uneven playing field. I totally understand that more and more of those men will just say "f*ck everything" and remove themselves from society that doesn't value them.

joeman1000 4y ago

I’m really feeling this. I’m 26 and have noticed that I’m chopped liver in terms of hiring/recruiting. Also same for life in general. I feel a bit ‘fucked over’

hanoz 4y ago

Young men always did fend for themselves, but I don't think it's right say they were left to. More like they were let to do the fending that came naturally to them, fending for themselves and their families, and generally being the apex of human potential in terms of physical and mental ability. The difference now is that they are actively stifled and suppressed by society, and from a young age, much to the detriment of all concerned.

lordfrito 4y ago
Yes, this, and also there used to be a sense of "we're all in it together". Not so much anymore.

WhiteBlueSkies 4y ago

>As a middle aged man strangers I meet expect the worst from me, why should I try? Is there something in your appearance which intimidates people?

bsuvc 4y ago
Would you ask this of a woman? Why do you assume there is something wrong with OP's appearance, and that it is OP's fault if someone doesn't like how he looks? Because he is a man?
- WhiteBlueSkies 4y ago
  You are getting too defensive, I don't mean anything bad by it nor do I suggest that something is wrong with him because of his gender. The reason I asked is because 99/100 this is fixable. The vast majority of people don't assume only the worst from middle aged men. The reason he mentioned that in particular could also mean that a lot of the anxiety is caused by depression and does not reflect the reality.
lordfrito 4y ago
Oh boy this question is a hornets nest, but I'll poke it. Of course it's how I come across. If I looked and acted like Tom Cruise I'm sure first impressions would be much different. That's what this is about by the way, first impressions, and only first impressions. We're talking about pre-judgment. We're talking about people assuming I'm something that I'm not. We're talking about stereotypes. You know, cultural stereotypes. Let me lead this hornets nest with this: I'm trying to be honest and constructive here. I could use outside perspective, as I can only see my situation from within. I've done a lot of thinking on this over the years, asking myself "What is it about the first impression that I'm trying to overcome?" and "What is it I need/want to change?" As near as I can tell it's because I am (and come across as) a fairly successful, put together, middle aged white man. And my gut tells me that this is because this specific combination of stereotypes "triggers" a common set of automatic defensive mechanisms in people. And so they expect the worst from me out of the gate. Being a strange man immediately paints you as threat in the eyes of a significant percentage of women. My experience is that you only have one thing on your mind, that you're lying to them to get something etc. When asked why I've been told this straight up by women. I feel bad for what they must have experienced, but I'm still being pre-judged. The "middle aged guy" part is pretty self explanatory, I represent the old guard, the old flawed thoughts, the patriarchy. If you see me as out of touch, then I'm part of the problem, and so of course you're going to take a defensive posture, maybe even try and set me straight. Being "put together", people automatically assume you're the successful jerk type that steps on people etc. I'm not showy or in your face, but I do have a certain confident presence. I've been told it's intimidating. Combine that with some likely buried envy and resentment towards achievement, and it makes you an easy target for classist angst. You know, Occupy Wall St. types. I'm not saying that I'm all that, but dang if there aren't a ton of people that subconsciously want to pull you down a peg or two. Being a white man falls into the current "white man patriarchy bad" trope which is all the rage in Hollywood these days. A year or so ago I was watching a movie (I forget which) with a girl I was seeing that had your standard rich entitled white guy villain you just love to hate on, and the usual group of brave underrepresented people fighting back. At one point during a scene with the evil white guy, she said out loud "You know I'm starting to hate white men". Mind you, this was coming from a white/Jewish woman! I looked at her and was like "Whoa, really? That's kind of offensive as I'm a white man". She said it wasn't about me, which of course it wasn't, but clearly there are significant subconscious cultural forces at play here. As an aside: I swear the Hollywood types are the biggest sexists/racists out there, because they literally cast roles to match pre-conceived race/gender stereotypes. Strong/smart/pretty white woman here, oppressed minority who wont back down there, smart Asian over here. Middle aged white guys have been relegated to harmless "Tim the Tool Man Taylor" idiot types, fat balding police types, or entitled rich dudes. I guess I fall into the latter. sigh Combine all these things together and yeah, I'm sure it's intimidating on many levels. People don't see me, they see a strawman, the kind our current social climate says "here's the problem". I get this the worst from customer service rep types, who really don't care if someone like me is having a bad day and just needs help. So much time spent trying to overcome these barriers. I'm not saying woe is me. I know how I come across is my problem. My original comment was just pointing out society doesn't look out for young men. These attitudes I see say more about persistent cultural stereotypes against men than they do about me. Lastly, yes I'm aware that I also hold these stereotypes, that's why they sting! I can't tell where their stereotype ends, and my presumption of a stereotype from their side begins. But the distrust is real. Please be constructive here, outside perspective on this is good. I can only see my situation from within.

anon291 4y ago

'Society' isn't a homogeneous thing. You describe common American society, but there are both subcultures in America as well as foreign cultures, who may or may not have the problem you describe. > Or maybe this is a win for feminism? Women finally have work equality and so men don't have to work as hard anymore. That stops working the moment young men from a subculture or from a foreign culture decide to work hard at taking over your society. This isn't a moral judgement, or even a warning, just an analysis of what happens historically.

lordfrito 4y ago
> 'Society' isn't a homogeneous thing. That's probably part of the problem. Subcultures are great, but they aren't the dominant culture. If you get too many subcultures, you start to dilute/fracture your primary culture. The center cannot hold. That's what we're going through now. Alternately, if a single subculture gets too large it simply takes over, that or as you said, we simply get conquered by an outside culture. The primary culture is the big rules that we mostly agree to conform to (if not all of them, certainly the parts necessary to survive). I pay my bills on time, etc. Heck there are some of us now arguing we shouldn't pay our mortgages, that'd show those fat cats on Wall Street, etc. So this is the problem: Our culture is fracturing. We can't even agree (if you believe what you see in the media) as to how to get along anymore. The fall of empires is basically a long unchecked decline into cultural irrelevance, followed by some final economic/political collapse or territorial take-over. Go to any third world country, the cultures are mostly brutal. People taking advantage of each other. (I'm sure someone will argue it's somehow the West's fault these countries stink, same people that argue it's the West's fault Russians are killing Ukrainians, but I digress). There's a reason the 419 scams are coming from poor places. These are desperate people that have no problem treating strangers badly. Try living in that culture. No one cares. It's everyone for themselves. This is what cultural irrelevance looks like. Young men checking out isn't a problem, it's a symptom of the problem. People are checking out and going their own way. And if you buy into the philosophy of extreme individualism, isn't this a victory? If we can accommodate a person demanding to be referred to as xie/yo/ze/ve, can't we accommodate those of us who simply don't want to show up to the party anymore? If people have a problem with men checking out, that's their problem. It seems to me the men checking out are enjoying themselves. When in Rome, right? Or maybe it's time to start pulling men back into the national discussion, adding their perspective into the dialog about what a "fair" and "just" society should look like. You know, don't we want a real diversity of viewpoints? Or are these men part of the "intolerable" that the left argues it's ok to not tolerate? If you're not willing to engage them, then at least leave them alone in their basements to play their games. They're not bothering anybody.

sangnoir 4y ago

> I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help without being asked. Could this be because a 20 yo woman was would be seen as helpless? Women are generally viewed by society as less physically threatening. Additionally, the lizard brain of heterosexual males will bias them towards stopping for a damsel in distress, even when the chances of reproduction are minuscule. All these factors are pretty in opposition to feminism > It seems that the amount of grinding men have to do is increasing, and the net rewards society bestows seem to be decreasing. Disaffected young men are a tale as long as time; few revolutions would have been successful without them, and they make voluntary armies possible. > Or maybe this is a win for feminism? Feminism will win when the average driver reckons a 20 y.o. woman is equally likely to bludgeon them in cold blood with a tire iron as a 20 y.o. man.

lordfrito 4y ago
> Could this be because a 20 yo woman was would be seen as helpless? Maybe. But it's the practical outcome that I'm talking about. Women are often offered help. Men aren't. To me this seems a more detrimental situation for a man than a women. Not sure how this is being spun as a negative for women. Or is the point Feminisim is trying to make "Stop helping me, I'm not helpless"? They don't want our help? This doesn't jibe with my experience. Or is a right-thinking male supposed to say "Feels great when I can't get help, because people don't assume I'm helpless"? Sorry, this seems like a pretty crappy world to live in. I personally know several women who manipulate like this to their advantage. I mean two of them have literally told me that they're being manipulative of these attitudes to get things they want from strangers. A young feminist family member recently told me she plays dumb sometimes to get men to do things for her, because since men already think she is stupid (her words) they deserve getting manipulated. When someone tells you they're being manipulative, believe them. I'm not judging all women, but some of what I've seen ain't right. And listen, I'm not here to rag on women or women's issues. That's an entirely different subject. My original comment is that the problems of men are largely ignored by society.

vagrantJin 4y ago

I think most societies throughout history have had the same intuition about young men. Quite recently the Ukraine was drafting young men. If they decided to check out en-masse, there would be no country called Ukraine anymore. Society is a fragile thing.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
> If they decided to check out en-masse They are literally forbidden to leave the country (only men, 18-60yo, with some exceptions [0]). It's not men choosing not to check-out, it's literally men being forced to die for a piece of land they might not even care for. [0] https://visitukraine.today/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-can-leave-ukraine-under-martial-law https://visitukraine.today/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man-ca...
- lazide 4y ago
  It is society trying to protect and sustain itself. And frankly, what other options are there?
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    > And frankly, what other options are there? Say "fuck it", let the politicians fight it by themselves, survive, and wave the whatever flag is the winning one in the end. Or let the volunteers fight, preferably in open fields somewhere. Who cares, it's just some lines on the map. If you're bothered by those, you can can still volunteer.
    - lazide 4y ago
      So every Ukrainian should bail because ‘politicians’ and ‘lines’, give up their heritage, their friends and neighbors, and any wealth and property they can’t carry, and hope they make it over another line (defended by people who actually give a damn), before they get shot for existing? Sounds like it would work for a very small subset of the population, and screw (and likely kill) most everyone else. 1) why should anyone else Ukrainian be okay with that, let alone enable it? 2) the reason cowardice is so frowned upon is the wonton selfishness gets a lot of others killed. Brothers, sisters, daughters, sons, parents. If someone is entangled with society, society is going to entangle with them. And anyone who doesn’t like that, is going to find out pretty quickly what the consequences are.

fxtentacle 4y ago

I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practice. But without a way to check the statistics, people still kind of believed in them. With the access to information that we have now, that is changing and so people are checking out when they notice that the structure of society is stacked against them. I mean it always has been, but without the internet people didn't notice it so clearly. And yes, I also believe that feminism might play a role, but more on the demand side: Nowadays, it is not mandatory anymore for the man to have a good enough job to feed the family, because double-income-households have become the norm. Back in the days where typically only the man would be the breadwinner, there was probably a stronger psychological pressure for men to deliver. I'm not sure if the absence of that nagging is good or bad, but it sure changed in the past 50 years.

lordfrito 4y ago
It's all about the social contract. Which is largely culturally dependent. Society may have never cared about young men, but (as someone else said here) the old contract with men here was build and fight wars and monogamy is enforced most will get the opportunity to raise their own family. As I get older I realize that evolution is less about me and my DNA and more about the cultural DNA of civilization. There's individual nature, there's cultural nurture, and they combine at scale to create what we call civilization. Man may be a magnificent machine, but that pales in comparison to the complexities and intricacies of civilization as a whole. I marvel that every ~80 years the entire planet is simply handed to and managed by a whole new group of humans. Not just that, but the transition is handled with almost seamless continuity. It boggles the mind. What is civilization as a whole? Merely a bunch of different cultures, competing for resources to breed, and passing on different values to their offspring, and combining with other cultures to form new combinations and mutations. I believe in survival of the fittest culture is what drives civilization. Few cultures are successful, and those that are don't stay that way forever. Turning the pages of history we see great cultures rise and fall. The best parts of our culture will be absorbed by others, some will be lost to time. It's not a question of "will the west fall?" it's a question of "when and how will the west fall?". The times are a changin'. They've always been a changin'. Ascribing to this worldview, I posit that the cultures that are the most fit long term are the ones that have the best/happiest productive outcome for everyone across society, and encourage/reward breeding and family building to ensure continuity. If true, then cultures that don't value productive young men (and women!) will find themselves conquered or outbred by those that do. As someone mentioned here, Ukraine is going to stand or fall on the backs of it's young soldiers. We are watching the turning of history. edit: I'm not saying only men need to be valued, but that the cultural value of men is what is being discussed here. The rise and fall of cultures is a good thing for civilization on the whole. DNA doesn't care about your happiness, it just wants to make more humans. Happiness has to be pursued on your own time. It was never really about us to begin with.

epups 4y ago

I'm sorry, but I think your narrative is misguided. When you were 20,which was 30 years ago, it might have been less likely that you would get a stranger to change your tire. But it was much more likely you, rather than a woman, would find employment and especially reach a position of power. Which one do you think is more important for a satisfying life? The fact that we are working towards a more equal society is not only a win for feminism, it is a win for humanity. Civilization has historically been built by men, as you say, because we used to believe that women were incapable of contributing equally. A big mistake, and a huge waste of potential talent.

mint2 4y ago
This comment leaves out a major important point. In the original comment, calling out the troubles of men as a win for feminism is a totally wrong premise. It was also an offhand remark at the end and really took away from the commment. feminism is unrelated to creating those cited difficulties and actually try to solve some of them. The troubles described sounded more like the product of rising inequality, reduced union sway, and growing power of the corporate machine. Some also sounded like products of unhealthy machoism in society where “real men” are expected to be 100% self reliant and always do things like change their own tires
- lordfrito 4y ago
  Ugh I wasn't calling out feminism, just saying it's one way to look at it. As if maybe if you buy into that notion, and if you think that's the goal, then maybe the outcome is a good thing. A transitional thing between where we were and someplace better. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't have answers.
- pnf 4y ago
  Real men do change their own tires. As it should be. That's not unhealthy machismo, it's the healthy kind.
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    Some men change their own tires. Some men call AAA when they get a flat. Some women change their own tires. Some women call AAA when they get a flat. All of these people are real.