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Sometimes the answer to a problem is not the complete opposite thing.

by nathanaldensr 4y ago

jrochkind1 4y ago
True, but also, sometimes the answer to a problem is getting rid of the thing that is the problem.
- gruez 4y ago
  Keyword here is "sometimes". Is there a reason to believe that this is such an instance?
  - maxfurman 4y ago
    It's hard to quantify the benefits of prisons, since they primarily prevent the incarcerated from committing further crimes. The harms of prisons, on the other hand, actually happen. TFA here being just one horrific example, but one doesn't have to look far to find examples of inmate abuse either in the present or historically. So "Should we abolish prisons?" boils down to "are the very real harms of prisons still less than the theoretical harms prevented by prisons?" I'm not confident about either side of that argument but it's worth considering.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      I advocate for building more low-level prisons because they're vastly cheaper and better suited for people who've committed minor crimes. I get more pushback on this from the anti-prison crowd than when I advocate for more maximum security prisons. It has started to feel like they're for anything that makes prisons unworkable, even if it kills prisoners in the meantime and leaves others on the street, than reforming the system because they wouldn't be able to argue against a humane and proportional prison. Prisons suck but they suck less than it did without them. Without alternative ways to handle the preexisting problems prison abolition is a step backwards.
      - jrochkind1 4y ago
        I doubt they are more against building "low-level prisons" than they are against building "maximum security prisons" -- they are just against building prisons, period. If you build prisons, they will be filled. When you have lots of hammers, everything is nails.
      - LetsGetTechnicl 4y ago
        My belief is that we don't need to keep building new prisons and if we invested in addressing people's basic needs and had better mental and healthcare we'd see less crime. Incarceration is an expensive way to not really solve the problem of crime.
        LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        Even if we assumed the interventions would work we have a current wave of low-to-medium level crime and we need a current solution for people who are being arrested 100+ times per year, and/or avoid all arrest by staying under unwritten minimums of damage. If dealt with they have to be put somewhere and if the default is to build maximum security prisons, that's what we'll do, or maybe just over-stuff the ones we have making them more dangerous. If we did build low-level prisons we'd not only have a solution for the interim, but it'd be an improvement over current conditions. I think they'd not only handle the new crime, but could pull non-violent offenders from the existing prisons as well - reducing overcrowding and better handling the actual danger the prisoners pose. > Incarceration is an expensive way to not really solve the problem of crime. Sure, and fire trucks don't solve fire. But both are part of the solution. > addressing people's basic needs What about crime that's not caused by poverty or need, like rape? There'll always be a need to lock people up. I share the goal of lowering that number but I can't see how it gets to zero. > and had better mental and healthcare we'd see less crime Prisons aren't alone in not working as intended - that award goes to most one-size-fits-all government programs. Those interventions aren't actually likely to solve the problem. They'll misdiagnose the problem, pick a horrible solution, and fail to execute properly anyways. I've seen this first hand with drug policy and addiction treatment. Our over-funded system is the most dangerous place to be. An addict on the streets of some poor city in the middle of nowhere has better outcomes.
  - jrochkind1 4y ago
    Sure, lots of reasons. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/thinking-about-how-abolish-prisons-mariame-kaba-podcast-transcript-ncna992721 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/thinking-about-how-abo...

Sometimes the answer to a problem is not the complete opposite thing.

jrochkind1 4y ago

True, but also, sometimes the answer to a problem is getting rid of the thing that is the problem.

gruez 4y ago
Keyword here is "sometimes". Is there a reason to believe that this is such an instance?
- maxfurman 4y ago
  It's hard to quantify the benefits of prisons, since they primarily prevent the incarcerated from committing further crimes. The harms of prisons, on the other hand, actually happen. TFA here being just one horrific example, but one doesn't have to look far to find examples of inmate abuse either in the present or historically. So "Should we abolish prisons?" boils down to "are the very real harms of prisons still less than the theoretical harms prevented by prisons?" I'm not confident about either side of that argument but it's worth considering.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    I advocate for building more low-level prisons because they're vastly cheaper and better suited for people who've committed minor crimes. I get more pushback on this from the anti-prison crowd than when I advocate for more maximum security prisons. It has started to feel like they're for anything that makes prisons unworkable, even if it kills prisoners in the meantime and leaves others on the street, than reforming the system because they wouldn't be able to argue against a humane and proportional prison. Prisons suck but they suck less than it did without them. Without alternative ways to handle the preexisting problems prison abolition is a step backwards.
    - jrochkind1 4y ago
      I doubt they are more against building "low-level prisons" than they are against building "maximum security prisons" -- they are just against building prisons, period. If you build prisons, they will be filled. When you have lots of hammers, everything is nails.
    - LetsGetTechnicl 4y ago
      My belief is that we don't need to keep building new prisons and if we invested in addressing people's basic needs and had better mental and healthcare we'd see less crime. Incarceration is an expensive way to not really solve the problem of crime.
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        Even if we assumed the interventions would work we have a current wave of low-to-medium level crime and we need a current solution for people who are being arrested 100+ times per year, and/or avoid all arrest by staying under unwritten minimums of damage. If dealt with they have to be put somewhere and if the default is to build maximum security prisons, that's what we'll do, or maybe just over-stuff the ones we have making them more dangerous. If we did build low-level prisons we'd not only have a solution for the interim, but it'd be an improvement over current conditions. I think they'd not only handle the new crime, but could pull non-violent offenders from the existing prisons as well - reducing overcrowding and better handling the actual danger the prisoners pose. > Incarceration is an expensive way to not really solve the problem of crime. Sure, and fire trucks don't solve fire. But both are part of the solution. > addressing people's basic needs What about crime that's not caused by poverty or need, like rape? There'll always be a need to lock people up. I share the goal of lowering that number but I can't see how it gets to zero. > and had better mental and healthcare we'd see less crime Prisons aren't alone in not working as intended - that award goes to most one-size-fits-all government programs. Those interventions aren't actually likely to solve the problem. They'll misdiagnose the problem, pick a horrible solution, and fail to execute properly anyways. I've seen this first hand with drug policy and addiction treatment. Our over-funded system is the most dangerous place to be. An addict on the streets of some poor city in the middle of nowhere has better outcomes.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  Sure, lots of reasons. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/thinking-about-how-abolish-prisons-mariame-kaba-podcast-transcript-ncna992721 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/thinking-about-how-abo...