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Ok cool but all this is just complaining that your build system isn't hermetic and that's someone else's fault? Like, what? You want to "not care about any of t

by orf 4y ago

Ok cool but all this is just complaining that your build system isn't hermetic and that's someone else's fault? Like, what? You want to "not care about any of this" but then get annoyed when that bites you in the ass? Avoid writing huge, long rambling comments and try to simplify your arguments to less than 100 words. You may find the fault, and the fix, becomes obvious. Start with trying to refute "The python2 executable still functions correctly as does all other code you have that relies on python2" without referencing anything specific to your build practices. > This is also hilarious since you had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find the only instances of "non backwards compatible" features in JS/HTML, an environment notorious for backwards compatibility. Also, `alert` may still stay in. Those where the first that came to mind. There are many others, and many more if you widen it to server-side JS.

tolmasky 4y ago
> Avoid writing huge, long rambling comments and try to simplify your arguments to less than 100 words. You may find the fault, and the fix, becomes obvious. If you don't want to read the comment, then also don't bother responding. The comment is long because I am explaining a death by a thousand paper cuts situation. Don't worry, Python isn't going to die just because I don't like it. You don't have to defend Python even if you don't feel like reading my comment. You can also just ignore it or come back to it when you have time to engage with it thoughtfully, instead of just asserting you are correct and having your only argument be that I can't fit my argument to the arbitrary word length you've come up with. > Those where the first that came to mind. There are many others, and many more if you widen it to server-side JS. You should stick to talking about Python. This is just not the case and not the culture of browser JS. It's honestly fairly disrespectful of the monumental work browser engineers have done to make that a reality. If you want to switch your argument to server-side JS (where blink and alert don't exist and you are thus leaving it completely as an exercise to the reader to come up with the similar situation), fine, but node 0.10 runs exactly the same today as it did 10 years ago. Again, the bar I am setting is low: have the unchanged thing still gettable and still runnable. I get it. When you work in a certain environment, you imagine all the problems it has must be common and all the benefits are unique. But that isn't the case with this particular problem.
- orf 4y ago
  It’s possible to explain a death by 1000 cuts situation in less than ~630 words. Despite that in the now nearly 1,000 words you’ve written in this sub thread alone you haven’t really asserted anything concrete. Start with trying to refute "The python2 executable still functions correctly as does all other code you have that relies on python2" without referencing anything specific to your build practices.
  - tolmasky 4y ago
    Sure, can't get python2 in Alpine 3.17. Few enough words for you?
    - orf 4y ago
      Yep! That’s perfect, thank you. If that’s your condensed point I’ll repeat my first comment: you’re looking for other people (alpine) to maintain python 2 for you forever. Presumably you’re too “not caring about any of this” to just pin your image to “alpine:3.15” and have it just work exactly as before? And presumably you’re too not bothered with any of this to understand that you had to do this because you didn’t pin the image to begin with, so your builds are not reproducible? And this is anyone else’s problem why?
      - tolmasky 4y ago
        You are certainly making progress on the argument you believe you are having. My point has always been simple: Python causes more pain than other languages when you're not directly using it. I can get node 0.10 on alpine 3.17 just fine. This demonstrates that your comparisons to server JS are completely wrong. But I know, you're going to tell me this is my problem and I expect the world to do work for me or something. Nope. As I've repeatedly stated, I've taken the time to get it to work already. I know you want to believe I'm here waiting for you to fix it, but I'm not. All I've said is: "Huh, I don't have this problem with anything else. I'll keep that in mind before I decide to use stuff from this ecosystem in the future".

by orf 4y ago

tolmasky 4y ago

> Avoid writing huge, long rambling comments and try to simplify your arguments to less than 100 words. You may find the fault, and the fix, becomes obvious. If you don't want to read the comment, then also don't bother responding. The comment is long because I am explaining a death by a thousand paper cuts situation. Don't worry, Python isn't going to die just because I don't like it. You don't have to defend Python even if you don't feel like reading my comment. You can also just ignore it or come back to it when you have time to engage with it thoughtfully, instead of just asserting you are correct and having your only argument be that I can't fit my argument to the arbitrary word length you've come up with. > Those where the first that came to mind. There are many others, and many more if you widen it to server-side JS. You should stick to talking about Python. This is just not the case and not the culture of browser JS. It's honestly fairly disrespectful of the monumental work browser engineers have done to make that a reality. If you want to switch your argument to server-side JS (where blink and alert don't exist and you are thus leaving it completely as an exercise to the reader to come up with the similar situation), fine, but node 0.10 runs exactly the same today as it did 10 years ago. Again, the bar I am setting is low: have the unchanged thing still gettable and still runnable. I get it. When you work in a certain environment, you imagine all the problems it has must be common and all the benefits are unique. But that isn't the case with this particular problem.

orf 4y ago
It’s possible to explain a death by 1000 cuts situation in less than ~630 words. Despite that in the now nearly 1,000 words you’ve written in this sub thread alone you haven’t really asserted anything concrete. Start with trying to refute "The python2 executable still functions correctly as does all other code you have that relies on python2" without referencing anything specific to your build practices.
- tolmasky 4y ago
  Sure, can't get python2 in Alpine 3.17. Few enough words for you?
  - orf 4y ago
    Yep! That’s perfect, thank you. If that’s your condensed point I’ll repeat my first comment: you’re looking for other people (alpine) to maintain python 2 for you forever. Presumably you’re too “not caring about any of this” to just pin your image to “alpine:3.15” and have it just work exactly as before? And presumably you’re too not bothered with any of this to understand that you had to do this because you didn’t pin the image to begin with, so your builds are not reproducible? And this is anyone else’s problem why?
    - tolmasky 4y ago
      You are certainly making progress on the argument you believe you are having. My point has always been simple: Python causes more pain than other languages when you're not directly using it. I can get node 0.10 on alpine 3.17 just fine. This demonstrates that your comparisons to server JS are completely wrong. But I know, you're going to tell me this is my problem and I expect the world to do work for me or something. Nope. As I've repeatedly stated, I've taken the time to get it to work already. I know you want to believe I'm here waiting for you to fix it, but I'm not. All I've said is: "Huh, I don't have this problem with anything else. I'll keep that in mind before I decide to use stuff from this ecosystem in the future".