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As a C++ developer, I don't really see how it is going to compete against VS Code + LSP, Visual Studio, or even CLion. From my experience, if you work on C++ c

by reisse 4y ago

As a C++ developer, I don't really see how it is going to compete against VS Code + LSP, Visual Studio, or even CLion. From my experience, if you work on C++ codebase large enough that indexing it is a problem, compiling and linking it is a problem of the same order. And as you need beefy hardware to compile and link your code anyway, you can reuse the same hardware for indexing and editing. Sure, VS Code + LSP may be dog slow on a typical "power consumption-optimized crappy business laptop" like T-series or X-series ThinkPads, but on such hardware, even if I had fast code editor, it'd be a pain to develop due to very long compile times anyway. And on a 12c20t workstation with 64 gigs of RAM any editor works like a charm. Yes, `clangd` eats 20 threads and 20 gigs of RAM for indexing, but go to definition works instantly, and I don't really care about hardware resources. Then, parsing C++ properly is really hard. Even JetBrains had to admit it as they've integrated clang++ frontend into the CLion. I don't believe that one person can create both a good code editor and a fully compliant C++ parser. Maybe they piggyback on EDG or clang++ frontends, but from their website it seems that everything is written from scratch. Another problem I see is that very few of large codebases are C++-only. Usually it's some C++, some Python (or Perl, if the code is old enough) scripts, maybe some Java interop code, few Go tools, with a bit of Lua on top. And a lot of make/CMake/whatever build system files. "Big" IDEs and editors either support all of that from the box or have plugins to fill the gaps. I don't know if the paid-only closed-source product can gain traction big enough to have a vibrant plugin community.

stewartlynch8 4y ago
The way I see 10x competing is by general speed and responsiveness, and the robustness of the parser. The parser may not be fully C++ compliant, but it is dependable and scales well. I don't want to be specific here, but my experiences with some other IDEs is that they can stall, lock up and operations can take seconds to complete regardless of the hardware. All this can break the flow. I think you really have to try 10x on a large project to notice the difference. The instance search feature alone can be a game changer. > I don't believe that one person can create both a good code editor and a fully compliant C++ parser Believe me, I question this myself almost every day. A small hobby project turned into a 6 year marathon and here we are. The parser will probably never be fully compliant, but hopefully it's good enough for most code. And the speed and robustness will hopefully compensate for this. > Another problem I see is that very few of large codebases are C++ only Even though I market 10x as a C++ editor, it has syntax highlighting for many other languages. And you can add more languages using the regex system. I'll hopefully be adding some parsing for other languages after the 1.0 launch.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  I would suggest using the Chromium src tree as a benchmark. It chokes CLion completely.
  - stewartlynch8 4y ago
    I tried it on Chromium a while back and it seemed to cope fine
- CMay 4y ago
  VS Code was pretty appealing to me at the start, but the project overall has experienced the typical degradation such that it provides cause to consider alternatives again even if it would be possible to return to older versions of it. Didn't see a feature list anywhere and even after pulling up a few of your livestreams couldn't find an example of you typing anything in it, so not sure if it has autocomplete or intellisense-like support for definitions or documentation. Will keep an eye on 10x. Your other matured projects look interesting too, so nice work. :)
  - stewartlynch8 4y ago
    The new website I've just uploaded has a feature list https://10xeditor.com/features.htm https://10xeditor.com/features.htm It has autocomplete, goto-definition, find references, type hover box etc. You should find everything that intellisense has.
_gabe_ 4y ago
I have a PC with 48GB of RAM, RTX 2080, Intel i7-9700K, and Visual Studio still lags a lot of the time for me. Also, Visual Studio doesn't support renaming by reference out of the box. You can install ReSharper, but then it slows things down even more. > As a C++ developer, I don't really see how it is going to compete against VS Code + LSP, Visual Studio, or even CLion. If it's fast and supports these basic features that literally every other language already supports, then it's already beating Visual Studio. I haven't used CLion so I can't comment there, and VSCode was a pain trying to set up, so if this supports integration with cmake and automatically configured everything, then that's a win in my book. Edit: I also hate these doom and gloom comments that basically say "nobody can beat big Corp Microsoft, Google, etc. Why bother trying...". What purpose does this comment serve? I'm sure the author is much more aware of how difficult this problem is then the people who aren't even attempting to solve it. All the power to him and I hope he succeeds because some other editors/IDEs for C++ would be great.
- darknavi 4y ago
  > VSCode was a pain trying to set up, so if this supports integration with cmake and automatically configured everything, then that's a win in my book. Not sure the last time you tried, but VS Code does support cmake (perhaps with extensions?).
- shaklee3 4y ago
  what about vscode was a pain to set up?
- pjmlp 4y ago
  https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/ide/refactoring/rename?view=msvc-170 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/ide/refactoring/rename...
  - _gabe_ 4y ago
    https://stackoverflow.com/a/70826647 https://stackoverflow.com/a/70826647
bogomipz 4y ago
Since you seem to have experience with both VS Code + LSP and CLion, could you or anyone else say how these two stack up? Is CLion worth paying for compared to what's on offer from VS Code + LSP?
- trws 4y ago
  It depends on what you want. VScode is more flexible and has a better remote experience, supports less out of the box but has more support through plugins. Clion handles refactoring better in my experience, and works well for most cmake based projects out of the box. If you need a different test system or build system though it can take some extra work to get it going. I find it worth it for the refactoring alone TBH, but the loss of remote development makes it less comfortable for day-to-day use.
forrestthewoods 4y ago
> As a C++ developer, I don't really see how it is going to compete against VS Code + LSP, Visual Studio, or even CLion. Easy, it's better than all of them! If you're a C++ developer on Windows then I encourage you to simply try it. I run a 32c/64t threadripper so I also don't particularly care about hardware resources. My experience on a custom C++ codebase and Unreal Engine codebase is that 10x is faster and more reliable than VS Code, Visual Studio, and Rider. I haven't tried CLion as Rider is the JetBrains tool for UE. I agree lack of support for other languages is a bummer. I'm hoping support will be added if the tool takes off. Maybe he ads LSP support, I dunno. > parsing C++ properly is really hard I'm genuinely blown away he wrote a custom parser that works. Unreal Engine is big and nasty and full of a kajillion macros. My experience thus far is that 10x handles it like a champ. Better than Visual Studio. And equal or better than Rider. Super super impressive.
- DannyBee 4y ago
  "Easy, it's better than all of them!" Technically better is rarely the thing that makes something able to compete successfully.
  - msz-g-w 4y ago
    It's not going to compete successfully in a popularity contest with the tools mentioned, but it very well may compete successfully in its niche (faster, more reliable for particular situations etc.).
- thewebcount 4y ago
  > on Windows They might want to mention that somewhere on the page. I spent time reading about it only to find out when I tried to download it that it doesn’t support my OS.

by reisse 4y ago

stewartlynch8 4y ago

The way I see 10x competing is by general speed and responsiveness, and the robustness of the parser. The parser may not be fully C++ compliant, but it is dependable and scales well. I don't want to be specific here, but my experiences with some other IDEs is that they can stall, lock up and operations can take seconds to complete regardless of the hardware. All this can break the flow. I think you really have to try 10x on a large project to notice the difference. The instance search feature alone can be a game changer. > I don't believe that one person can create both a good code editor and a fully compliant C++ parser Believe me, I question this myself almost every day. A small hobby project turned into a 6 year marathon and here we are. The parser will probably never be fully compliant, but hopefully it's good enough for most code. And the speed and robustness will hopefully compensate for this. > Another problem I see is that very few of large codebases are C++ only Even though I market 10x as a C++ editor, it has syntax highlighting for many other languages. And you can add more languages using the regex system. I'll hopefully be adding some parsing for other languages after the 1.0 launch.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago
I would suggest using the Chromium src tree as a benchmark. It chokes CLion completely.
- stewartlynch8 4y ago
  I tried it on Chromium a while back and it seemed to cope fine
CMay 4y ago
VS Code was pretty appealing to me at the start, but the project overall has experienced the typical degradation such that it provides cause to consider alternatives again even if it would be possible to return to older versions of it. Didn't see a feature list anywhere and even after pulling up a few of your livestreams couldn't find an example of you typing anything in it, so not sure if it has autocomplete or intellisense-like support for definitions or documentation. Will keep an eye on 10x. Your other matured projects look interesting too, so nice work. :)
- stewartlynch8 4y ago
  The new website I've just uploaded has a feature list https://10xeditor.com/features.htm https://10xeditor.com/features.htm It has autocomplete, goto-definition, find references, type hover box etc. You should find everything that intellisense has.

_gabe_ 4y ago

I have a PC with 48GB of RAM, RTX 2080, Intel i7-9700K, and Visual Studio still lags a lot of the time for me. Also, Visual Studio doesn't support renaming by reference out of the box. You can install ReSharper, but then it slows things down even more. > As a C++ developer, I don't really see how it is going to compete against VS Code + LSP, Visual Studio, or even CLion. If it's fast and supports these basic features that literally every other language already supports, then it's already beating Visual Studio. I haven't used CLion so I can't comment there, and VSCode was a pain trying to set up, so if this supports integration with cmake and automatically configured everything, then that's a win in my book. Edit: I also hate these doom and gloom comments that basically say "nobody can beat big Corp Microsoft, Google, etc. Why bother trying...". What purpose does this comment serve? I'm sure the author is much more aware of how difficult this problem is then the people who aren't even attempting to solve it. All the power to him and I hope he succeeds because some other editors/IDEs for C++ would be great.

darknavi 4y ago
> VSCode was a pain trying to set up, so if this supports integration with cmake and automatically configured everything, then that's a win in my book. Not sure the last time you tried, but VS Code does support cmake (perhaps with extensions?).
shaklee3 4y ago
what about vscode was a pain to set up?
pjmlp 4y ago
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/ide/refactoring/rename?view=msvc-170 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/ide/refactoring/rename...
- _gabe_ 4y ago
  https://stackoverflow.com/a/70826647 https://stackoverflow.com/a/70826647

bogomipz 4y ago

Since you seem to have experience with both VS Code + LSP and CLion, could you or anyone else say how these two stack up? Is CLion worth paying for compared to what's on offer from VS Code + LSP?

trws 4y ago
It depends on what you want. VScode is more flexible and has a better remote experience, supports less out of the box but has more support through plugins. Clion handles refactoring better in my experience, and works well for most cmake based projects out of the box. If you need a different test system or build system though it can take some extra work to get it going. I find it worth it for the refactoring alone TBH, but the loss of remote development makes it less comfortable for day-to-day use.

forrestthewoods 4y ago

> As a C++ developer, I don't really see how it is going to compete against VS Code + LSP, Visual Studio, or even CLion. Easy, it's better than all of them! If you're a C++ developer on Windows then I encourage you to simply try it. I run a 32c/64t threadripper so I also don't particularly care about hardware resources. My experience on a custom C++ codebase and Unreal Engine codebase is that 10x is faster and more reliable than VS Code, Visual Studio, and Rider. I haven't tried CLion as Rider is the JetBrains tool for UE. I agree lack of support for other languages is a bummer. I'm hoping support will be added if the tool takes off. Maybe he ads LSP support, I dunno. > parsing C++ properly is really hard I'm genuinely blown away he wrote a custom parser that works. Unreal Engine is big and nasty and full of a kajillion macros. My experience thus far is that 10x handles it like a champ. Better than Visual Studio. And equal or better than Rider. Super super impressive.

DannyBee 4y ago
"Easy, it's better than all of them!" Technically better is rarely the thing that makes something able to compete successfully.
- msz-g-w 4y ago
  It's not going to compete successfully in a popularity contest with the tools mentioned, but it very well may compete successfully in its niche (faster, more reliable for particular situations etc.).
thewebcount 4y ago
> on Windows They might want to mention that somewhere on the page. I spent time reading about it only to find out when I tried to download it that it doesn’t support my OS.