4 ms·

Strong disagree. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, and I personally find it frustrating when people excuse their behaviour in the manner yo

Strong disagree. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, and I personally find it frustrating when people excuse their behaviour in the manner you are doing. Yes work sucks, but being unpleasant, cynical and snarky just makes it even worse. Roll up your sleeves and help or please get out of the way.

mdcds 4y ago
> It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, -1 for strawman disagreeing with someone and raking high on Disagreeableness BigFive trait are two different things
- mcguire 4y ago
  Yes, and the comment being responded to is asserting it's impossible to disagree without being disagreeable.
macNchz 4y ago
Absolutely, organizations need someone who will stand up and ensure important things are dealt with, but doing so does not require being unpleasant. This is something I’ve actively tried to cultivate in myself, and have been happy to receive feedback both that I am “not at all a yes-man” and am “someone who has a calming presence” by coworkers. I think that being the unpleasant version of “not a yes-man” just means that people will try to find ways around you.
- xen2xen1 4y ago
  I'm known as the nice friend who will tell you hard things. I'm a nice guy who knows how to be a dick when I have to be. I actively work on both being "softer" as I probably have gone a bit too direct, and being more assertive as I can be too easy going. I usually like the balance I've struck, and often have people thank me after I tell them hard, serious stuff. I wish more people could do that, know so many jerks. Being assertive does NOT mean you have to be ass.
  - kyleyeats 4y ago
    How would you do it the other way? If you started off as disagreeable and had to learn agreeability? Do you think you could do that without ever being an ass? Do you think it's fair that you got a chance to develop towards a happy middle but someone working from the other end would never get that chance?
    - xen2xen1 4y ago
      I have trouble believing someone could never end up starting as an ass, and end up been agreeable. I've known too many people who have moderated over the course of their lives. However, everyone who even tries to stand up to anyone else risks being an ass, so everyone with a backbone probably will be at some point.
      - citrate05 4y ago
        Most people naturally become more agreeable over the courses of their lives (as well as less neurotic and more conscientious). Beyond that, intentional personality change also seems to be possible. For example, this is a study that used a coaching app to help people change aspects of their personality [1]; apparently, people who wanted to increase agreeableness did see pretty large effect sizes. [1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2017548118 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2017548118
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Name_Chawps 4y ago
This study, and the person you're replying to, are using the term disagreeable in the Big Five psychology sense. They don't mean unpleasant, cynical, or snarky. Sometimes disagreeable people are snarky, but they don't have to be. You do, actually, have to be disagreeable to disagree. Agreeable people don't like to cause a fuss and just go along with stuff even if they disagree internally. Disagreeable people are the people who tend to disagree. That's all it means. Some of them are snarky assholes (you right now?), and others are just people who disagree. "Disagreeable" in common parlance means difficult, overly-critical, and aggressive, but that's not what 's being said here.
- citrate05 4y ago
  But the Big Five Inventory [1] does explicitly ask if subjects consider themselves to sometimes be cold, distant, rude, unkind, selfish, or inconsiderate of others, and these answers are all used to compute their (dis)agreeableness scores. Similar questions also show up in other inventories. So, without even getting into any other behaviors these traits might correlate with, the Big 5 definition of "disagreeable" extends well beyond literally just tending to disagree with others. [1] https://arc.psych.wisc.edu/self-report/big-five-inventory-bfi/ https://arc.psych.wisc.edu/self-report/big-five-inventory-bf...
- HWR_14 4y ago
  The study defines "disagreeable" as "selfish, combative and manipulative". I don't think the point is as fine as you think. It's not about "passive" vs "assertive" like you claim. Both of those can be agreeable!
- kyleyeats 4y ago
  Great point, thanks for making it. It's maybe this very conflation that I have the real problem with.
kyleyeats 4y ago
No, it's not possible, if you're disagreeable. Being disagreeable is a matter of personality, not a matter of personal choice. It would be like me disagreeing while not being tall. I can't do it because I am tall all the time. Obviously disagreeable can agree or disagree, and they can do either well or badly (I happen to be very good at both, thanks). It doesn't change who they are while doing it. Just like someone who isn't open to new experiences doesn't experience a personality change while trying a new restaurant. Disagreeable people do, as a group, have more unpleasant, cynical and snarky people. But that doesn't mean that all people in that group are that way. It's not fair for you to assign me these qualities and then argue against them when I'm talking about disagreeable people at large. Again, it's half the population so there's a wide spectrum of outcomes.

mdcds 4y ago

> It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, -1 for strawman disagreeing with someone and raking high on Disagreeableness BigFive trait are two different things

mcguire 4y ago
Yes, and the comment being responded to is asserting it's impossible to disagree without being disagreeable.

macNchz 4y ago

Absolutely, organizations need someone who will stand up and ensure important things are dealt with, but doing so does not require being unpleasant. This is something I’ve actively tried to cultivate in myself, and have been happy to receive feedback both that I am “not at all a yes-man” and am “someone who has a calming presence” by coworkers. I think that being the unpleasant version of “not a yes-man” just means that people will try to find ways around you.

xen2xen1 4y ago
I'm known as the nice friend who will tell you hard things. I'm a nice guy who knows how to be a dick when I have to be. I actively work on both being "softer" as I probably have gone a bit too direct, and being more assertive as I can be too easy going. I usually like the balance I've struck, and often have people thank me after I tell them hard, serious stuff. I wish more people could do that, know so many jerks. Being assertive does NOT mean you have to be ass.
- kyleyeats 4y ago
  How would you do it the other way? If you started off as disagreeable and had to learn agreeability? Do you think you could do that without ever being an ass? Do you think it's fair that you got a chance to develop towards a happy middle but someone working from the other end would never get that chance?
  - xen2xen1 4y ago
    I have trouble believing someone could never end up starting as an ass, and end up been agreeable. I've known too many people who have moderated over the course of their lives. However, everyone who even tries to stand up to anyone else risks being an ass, so everyone with a backbone probably will be at some point.
    - citrate05 4y ago
      Most people naturally become more agreeable over the courses of their lives (as well as less neurotic and more conscientious). Beyond that, intentional personality change also seems to be possible. For example, this is a study that used a coaching app to help people change aspects of their personality [1]; apparently, people who wanted to increase agreeableness did see pretty large effect sizes. [1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2017548118 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2017548118

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Name_Chawps 4y ago

This study, and the person you're replying to, are using the term disagreeable in the Big Five psychology sense. They don't mean unpleasant, cynical, or snarky. Sometimes disagreeable people are snarky, but they don't have to be. You do, actually, have to be disagreeable to disagree. Agreeable people don't like to cause a fuss and just go along with stuff even if they disagree internally. Disagreeable people are the people who tend to disagree. That's all it means. Some of them are snarky assholes (you right now?), and others are just people who disagree. "Disagreeable" in common parlance means difficult, overly-critical, and aggressive, but that's not what 's being said here.

citrate05 4y ago
But the Big Five Inventory [1] does explicitly ask if subjects consider themselves to sometimes be cold, distant, rude, unkind, selfish, or inconsiderate of others, and these answers are all used to compute their (dis)agreeableness scores. Similar questions also show up in other inventories. So, without even getting into any other behaviors these traits might correlate with, the Big 5 definition of "disagreeable" extends well beyond literally just tending to disagree with others. [1] https://arc.psych.wisc.edu/self-report/big-five-inventory-bfi/ https://arc.psych.wisc.edu/self-report/big-five-inventory-bf...
HWR_14 4y ago
The study defines "disagreeable" as "selfish, combative and manipulative". I don't think the point is as fine as you think. It's not about "passive" vs "assertive" like you claim. Both of those can be agreeable!
kyleyeats 4y ago
Great point, thanks for making it. It's maybe this very conflation that I have the real problem with.

kyleyeats 4y ago

No, it's not possible, if you're disagreeable. Being disagreeable is a matter of personality, not a matter of personal choice. It would be like me disagreeing while not being tall. I can't do it because I am tall all the time. Obviously disagreeable can agree or disagree, and they can do either well or badly (I happen to be very good at both, thanks). It doesn't change who they are while doing it. Just like someone who isn't open to new experiences doesn't experience a personality change while trying a new restaurant. Disagreeable people do, as a group, have more unpleasant, cynical and snarky people. But that doesn't mean that all people in that group are that way. It's not fair for you to assign me these qualities and then argue against them when I'm talking about disagreeable people at large. Again, it's half the population so there's a wide spectrum of outcomes.