5 ms·

Add [2014] to title.

by wolf550e 4y ago

tinus_hn 4y ago
Ask nicely.
- chungy 4y ago
  Nice is overrated. The GP clearly identifies a problem and suggests a solution.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    Nice is never overrated.
    - chungy 4y ago
      It is when there's a demand for toxic niceness. Not every situation requires fluffy words.
      - saagarjha 4y ago
        When making a request it is traditional to recognize that you are asking a favor, however small, of someone else, and using a "please" can help signal that you are aware of this. Or, if you have an aversion to the p-word, just phrasing it as an appeal, e.g. "Can someone add [2014] to the title?", can help distinguish your ask from an order. I fail to see any toxicity in this phrasing. Of course, I changed the title regardless, so it's not like it "really mattered"; I wouldn't have replied to this conversation if someone didn't start this thread. I certainly don't intend to demand anything from anyone. But kindness is generally free or very cheap, so I find it to be smarter to err on the side of being nice. And that's on top of whatever moral framework or whatever you may have that guides you to be considerate, hold doors open for other people, whatever, that you do to make the world a better place.
    - klodolph 4y ago
      The original comment is as nice as it needs to be.
      - saagarjha 4y ago
        Being nice isn't a need, it's a courtesy. We extend courtesy to others because it is the right thing to do.
        klodolph 4y ago
        This is a misinterpretation of my comment. If you care about being nice, then start by trying to understand what people mean when they make a comment, rather than choosing an interpretation of the comment and responding to your own interpretation. I see this a lot on HN. Any comment has different ways to be interpreted. It’s very frustrating when someone picks, out of the many different possible interpretations, an interpretation that allows them to argue against it.
        saagarjha 4y ago
        I might be helpful for you to expand on what you actually meant and why you felt I misunderstood your position, because I’m not quite sure what I missed. I’d be happy to do the same for my comment: my point was that being nice is not something that really has a floor. It’s what you do to seem agreeable and pleasant. It’s also something that varies from person to person. I’m generally pretty accepting of not having enough niceness but I will still note that on the scale of how to phrase a request it’s on the ruder end, just a step up from actively demanding things from people. It doesn’t hurt to be more polite than this.
        klodolph 4y ago
        > It’s what you do to seem agreeable and pleasant. It’s also highly cultural and differs depending on context. Something which is nice in one culture or context could be outright offensive in a different culture or context. Even if you are not traveling to another country, you can be shocked by the different ideas about how people should behave if you travel. For example, someone from California could come to New York. Both are coastal, wealthy states in the US that vote Democratic. The Californian will think, “Geez, New Yorkers are so rude! They don’t say ‘hi‘ or ‘please excuse me’ or ‘thank you’.” Meanwhile, someone from New York goes to California and thinks, “Geez, Californians are so rude! They are passive aggressive, get in your way, and waste your time!” It’s really just a difference of ideas about how people should behave. New Yorkers aren’t rude, despite the reputation. Californians aren’t rude either. They just have different ideas about what “rude” means. Californians will say all sorts of nice things to you to try and make you feel comfortable. New Yorkers will help you carry your luggage up the subway stairs without saying a word. Different worlds, different ways of behaving. Any effort to moderate a forum like HN is going to run face-first into the problem of enforcing one set of standards consistently to people who are from not only both New York and California, but every other part of the world. It would be unreasonable to try and take one culture (like SF Bay area culture, since YC is based there) and enforce it on the forum, since you can’t reasonably expect everyone to be familiar with that culture’s norms. The way you solve it is by using a looser set of standards that a broader set of people can agree on, and letting comments slide even if they don’t match what is seen as polite in your own culture. Postel’s law and all that. If somebody says something like “Add [2014] to title.” you can only interpret it as “not nice” if you judge it against some specific cultural norm, like a California cultural norm. That’s not a good way to judge comments on HN, because HN gets comments from all over the world—and if you, for example, judge it from a New York cultural norm, you’d say “This person is being polite by getting to the point and not wasting my time.”
saagarjha 4y ago
Done.

Add [2014] to title.

tinus_hn 4y ago

Ask nicely.

chungy 4y ago
Nice is overrated. The GP clearly identifies a problem and suggests a solution.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  Nice is never overrated.
  - chungy 4y ago
    It is when there's a demand for toxic niceness. Not every situation requires fluffy words.
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      When making a request it is traditional to recognize that you are asking a favor, however small, of someone else, and using a "please" can help signal that you are aware of this. Or, if you have an aversion to the p-word, just phrasing it as an appeal, e.g. "Can someone add [2014] to the title?", can help distinguish your ask from an order. I fail to see any toxicity in this phrasing. Of course, I changed the title regardless, so it's not like it "really mattered"; I wouldn't have replied to this conversation if someone didn't start this thread. I certainly don't intend to demand anything from anyone. But kindness is generally free or very cheap, so I find it to be smarter to err on the side of being nice. And that's on top of whatever moral framework or whatever you may have that guides you to be considerate, hold doors open for other people, whatever, that you do to make the world a better place.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    The original comment is as nice as it needs to be.
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      Being nice isn't a need, it's a courtesy. We extend courtesy to others because it is the right thing to do.
      - klodolph 4y ago
        This is a misinterpretation of my comment. If you care about being nice, then start by trying to understand what people mean when they make a comment, rather than choosing an interpretation of the comment and responding to your own interpretation. I see this a lot on HN. Any comment has different ways to be interpreted. It’s very frustrating when someone picks, out of the many different possible interpretations, an interpretation that allows them to argue against it.
        saagarjha 4y ago
        I might be helpful for you to expand on what you actually meant and why you felt I misunderstood your position, because I’m not quite sure what I missed. I’d be happy to do the same for my comment: my point was that being nice is not something that really has a floor. It’s what you do to seem agreeable and pleasant. It’s also something that varies from person to person. I’m generally pretty accepting of not having enough niceness but I will still note that on the scale of how to phrase a request it’s on the ruder end, just a step up from actively demanding things from people. It doesn’t hurt to be more polite than this.
        klodolph 4y ago
        > It’s what you do to seem agreeable and pleasant. It’s also highly cultural and differs depending on context. Something which is nice in one culture or context could be outright offensive in a different culture or context. Even if you are not traveling to another country, you can be shocked by the different ideas about how people should behave if you travel. For example, someone from California could come to New York. Both are coastal, wealthy states in the US that vote Democratic. The Californian will think, “Geez, New Yorkers are so rude! They don’t say ‘hi‘ or ‘please excuse me’ or ‘thank you’.” Meanwhile, someone from New York goes to California and thinks, “Geez, Californians are so rude! They are passive aggressive, get in your way, and waste your time!” It’s really just a difference of ideas about how people should behave. New Yorkers aren’t rude, despite the reputation. Californians aren’t rude either. They just have different ideas about what “rude” means. Californians will say all sorts of nice things to you to try and make you feel comfortable. New Yorkers will help you carry your luggage up the subway stairs without saying a word. Different worlds, different ways of behaving. Any effort to moderate a forum like HN is going to run face-first into the problem of enforcing one set of standards consistently to people who are from not only both New York and California, but every other part of the world. It would be unreasonable to try and take one culture (like SF Bay area culture, since YC is based there) and enforce it on the forum, since you can’t reasonably expect everyone to be familiar with that culture’s norms. The way you solve it is by using a looser set of standards that a broader set of people can agree on, and letting comments slide even if they don’t match what is seen as polite in your own culture. Postel’s law and all that. If somebody says something like “Add [2014] to title.” you can only interpret it as “not nice” if you judge it against some specific cultural norm, like a California cultural norm. That’s not a good way to judge comments on HN, because HN gets comments from all over the world—and if you, for example, judge it from a New York cultural norm, you’d say “This person is being polite by getting to the point and not wasting my time.”

saagarjha 4y ago

Done.