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That is precisely what happened: I don't write Python (grandma doesn't write JS). Python changed (JS changed). Environment stopped supporting the old one (brows

That is precisely what happened: I don't write Python (grandma doesn't write JS). Python changed (JS changed). Environment stopped supporting the old one (browser for grandma, package manager for me). End-user apps didn't keep up (website for grandma, the apps for me). I am now forced to go resolve these issues. This is 100% analogous. Please explain how it is not. In both scenarios you would blame the "app developer" (in the Python case you would blame app/library developers for bad dev practices or whatever, in the hypothetical you would blame the website developer for not updating the crossword page), and the end-use for being entitled (in my case, the user of various apps that are broken, and the grandma using the crossword website). You supposed solution is that we should either not complain, or I guess, ironically, just learn the base systems better to be more on top of things so we can compensate for the bad dev practices ourselves. Also, I am not "trying hard" not to care about Python. I specifically said in my very first comment I go out of my way to avoid it now. I think that falls in the "cares" category. My default state is to not be aware of what language things are written in. I don't know if some given tool is written in C, bash, or JS. If I were to coincidentally learn what language it was written in, it might serve as a curiosity, but not really phase me either way. However, I was forced to become aware of a bunch of Python stuff since it started breaking, and then forced to learn about all the weird workarounds to get it working. Given that I was forced to repeatedly deal with dependency hell with apps in this language, I am now choosing to avoid it if I can in the future if I learn that an app is written in it.

ninkendo 4y ago
I fully agree with this sentiment and this is why I’m increasingly convinced that scripting languages (and any language that requires a VM which is not included in the platforms you deploy to) are wholly inappropriate for software which you distribute to non-developer end-users. Nobody should ever have to be hit with obscure pip/virtualenv/pypy/etc bugs for trying to use your command line app. Nobody should have to suffer through an “installation” step that requires installing the language itself and running a language-provided package manager to install dependencies/etc. I don’t care how much you wrap it in a setup.sh that tries (and typically, fails miserably) to automate everything. (For OS’s like linux, your distro-provided package managers make the situation slightly better, but only if you ship your app as a package using these distro’s built-in package systems, which is a huge pain if you want to support multiple distros.) But if you opt to skip the package manager and want to ship a “simple” installation experience using something like a setup.sh, and you want to use a scripting language like python/ruby/etc (integrated with an installation of that language in $HOME or in some system directory), you’re treating your users to a world of pain. Please, please use a compiled language, and ship a binary (or collection of binaries/libraries that can sit in a folder together and just work when you run it.)
_eht 4y ago
[flagged]
- daaaaaaan 4y ago
  This is a weird gate-keeping response.
  - _eht 4y ago
    [flagged]
- tolmasky 4y ago
  It's always amusing when the other person has to fall back on "The tricks on you! You invested time talking to me, while I deviously spent way less time and put less thought into my arguments. Don't you feel foolish now?" No, not really. As it turns out writing a couple paragraphs does not meaningfully impact the progress of my other work. And I would assume that's the case with most people. Maybe one day you can get past DH0: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hannasanarion 4y ago
What "end user apps" are you talking about? The "magic date" when the breaking update came was 15 years ago. Python gave this developer 10 years to get with the program and update to the new version, and Debian kept it alive for an additional 5 just in case. If a developer can't get their act together to change over their codebase to preserve minimum functionality despite FIFTEEN YEARS of warning, I don't want to be using their app because who knows what other obvious problems they are ignoring.
- _eht 4y ago
  Let me add these types of users rarely think about sponsoring such ‘important’ projects that they seem to not be able to live happily without. It’s called open source entitlement. The kind of people who fill up your issues and don’t push PRs and only donate with their melodramatic keyboard.

ninkendo 4y ago

I fully agree with this sentiment and this is why I’m increasingly convinced that scripting languages (and any language that requires a VM which is not included in the platforms you deploy to) are wholly inappropriate for software which you distribute to non-developer end-users. Nobody should ever have to be hit with obscure pip/virtualenv/pypy/etc bugs for trying to use your command line app. Nobody should have to suffer through an “installation” step that requires installing the language itself and running a language-provided package manager to install dependencies/etc. I don’t care how much you wrap it in a setup.sh that tries (and typically, fails miserably) to automate everything. (For OS’s like linux, your distro-provided package managers make the situation slightly better, but only if you ship your app as a package using these distro’s built-in package systems, which is a huge pain if you want to support multiple distros.) But if you opt to skip the package manager and want to ship a “simple” installation experience using something like a setup.sh, and you want to use a scripting language like python/ruby/etc (integrated with an installation of that language in $HOME or in some system directory), you’re treating your users to a world of pain. Please, please use a compiled language, and ship a binary (or collection of binaries/libraries that can sit in a folder together and just work when you run it.)

_eht 4y ago

[flagged]

daaaaaaan 4y ago
This is a weird gate-keeping response.
- _eht 4y ago
  [flagged]
tolmasky 4y ago
It's always amusing when the other person has to fall back on "The tricks on you! You invested time talking to me, while I deviously spent way less time and put less thought into my arguments. Don't you feel foolish now?" No, not really. As it turns out writing a couple paragraphs does not meaningfully impact the progress of my other work. And I would assume that's the case with most people. Maybe one day you can get past DH0: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hannasanarion 4y ago

What "end user apps" are you talking about? The "magic date" when the breaking update came was 15 years ago. Python gave this developer 10 years to get with the program and update to the new version, and Debian kept it alive for an additional 5 just in case. If a developer can't get their act together to change over their codebase to preserve minimum functionality despite FIFTEEN YEARS of warning, I don't want to be using their app because who knows what other obvious problems they are ignoring.

_eht 4y ago
Let me add these types of users rarely think about sponsoring such ‘important’ projects that they seem to not be able to live happily without. It’s called open source entitlement. The kind of people who fill up your issues and don’t push PRs and only donate with their melodramatic keyboard.