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a lot of this, at least in the united states, is due to a deep-seated dichotomy of heteronormative gender roles in suburban life. new mums groups have learned

a lot of this, at least in the united states, is due to a deep-seated dichotomy of heteronormative gender roles in suburban life. new mums groups have learned to be welcoming, but not inclusive to newcomers and that may largely be due to puritanical influences present in a lot of the cultures that oversee these groups. one could go so far as to say such patronisation and strict gender conformity serve to ostracize and secure the old-guard from ever encroaching threat of feminism or change. As a diesel mechanic in the midwest, I can say the decline in men that have work could be a couple of factors. First, we decided 30 years ago everyone had to go to college, and in doing so found most degrees hardly worth the paper they were printed on while landed gentry reaped the windfall of college loan income. conversely tradecraft like welding, carpentry, HVAC, engine repair, and plumbing fell by the wayside with many of these crafts given a scarlet letter and left to beg and plead for any help whatsoever. there is still plenty of work, its just been made obscure and wicked by a hand that cant reap any lending profit from it. second, militant drug testing and background checks have created an artificial scarcity. Do i need a sober person to run a drill press? certainly, but if that person spent a little time in jail for cannabis possession i dont care. Viewing potential employees as potential liabilities has in turn created a culture of calvinist jackboots that only hire the most visibly noble --if not technically bereft-- to fill their ranks.

xen2xen1 4y ago
I used to tell kids to go to college, and was unhappy if they did not go. Now I tell them they need a career. You need a skill people will pay for, or your life will suck. I'm in IT and most of skills come from a 2 year local degree, so it's college, but. It was very skills based. It was a career. Tell kids to get a career.
microtherion 4y ago
I believe (and that's hardly an original observation) that some of the problems in the US trades based professions stem from their lack of non-academic credentials systems. In e.g. Germany or Switzerland, your pot smoking drill press operator could point to a four year apprenticeship, and possibly even advanced specializations beyond that, with hundreds of recognized professional tracks. In the US, professional skills seem to be acquired somewhat more randomly, and consequently, are less portable.
- unholythree 4y ago
  That's less true in union work or licensed trades; but of course lots of trades are only licensed in specific localities or the licensing is loosely enforced. There definitely is a emphasis in the U.S. on college being the "correct" path though. I recently saw a public charter school in my city advertise their entire graduating class was accepted into colleges. Clearly this was the best metric of success to them.
ryandrake 4y ago
> First, we decided 30 years ago everyone had to go to college, and in doing so found most degrees hardly worth the paper they were printed on while landed gentry reaped the windfall of college loan income. conversely tradecraft like welding, carpentry, HVAC, engine repair, and plumbing fell by the wayside with many of these crafts given a scarlet letter and left to beg and plead for any help whatsoever. there is still plenty of work, its just been made obscure and wicked by a hand that cant reap any lending profit from it. If welding, carpentry, HVAC and so on were clearly strong career paths, people would have figured this out and ignored the college advice. Skilled trades have the potential to be great careers, but fall short. 1. They just don't pay enough. You can go to college and learn computer science and at 22 years old have a shot at making $100K+ or even more in expensive COL areas. In the trades, you have lots of training, apprenticeships, seniority... how many years does it take to get to $100K as a welder? 2. The work is tough on your body, which has a shelf life. As opposed to an office worker who can sit in his office chair, collecting a salary, until he dies of old age. I supposed these two points can be mitigated by learning the business and eventually running your own contracting company, where you siphon your profits and employ younger bodies. But not everyone can/will go down that path. I agree with you about the drug and background checks. I'm sure they don't help either.
- subradios 4y ago
  I think comparing the trades to the hottest intellectual profession on the planet with extremely heavy competition is extremely misguided. The whiteboard torture test exists because there are tens of thousands of candidates and only hundreds of those actually have a pulse when it comes to developing software. I'm not talking about implementing Kadane's or Dijkstra's, I'm talking about fizzbuzz, basic control structures, etc.
potta_coffee 4y ago
If welding paid, I'd be doing that rather than sitting at my computer dealing with corporate bullshit. I didn't get a degree but I'm still sitting here coding and not welding. I'm just saying I think there's more to the issue than that we sent people to college. The trades just don't pay well enough.

xen2xen1 4y ago

I used to tell kids to go to college, and was unhappy if they did not go. Now I tell them they need a career. You need a skill people will pay for, or your life will suck. I'm in IT and most of skills come from a 2 year local degree, so it's college, but. It was very skills based. It was a career. Tell kids to get a career.

microtherion 4y ago

I believe (and that's hardly an original observation) that some of the problems in the US trades based professions stem from their lack of non-academic credentials systems. In e.g. Germany or Switzerland, your pot smoking drill press operator could point to a four year apprenticeship, and possibly even advanced specializations beyond that, with hundreds of recognized professional tracks. In the US, professional skills seem to be acquired somewhat more randomly, and consequently, are less portable.

unholythree 4y ago
That's less true in union work or licensed trades; but of course lots of trades are only licensed in specific localities or the licensing is loosely enforced. There definitely is a emphasis in the U.S. on college being the "correct" path though. I recently saw a public charter school in my city advertise their entire graduating class was accepted into colleges. Clearly this was the best metric of success to them.

ryandrake 4y ago

> First, we decided 30 years ago everyone had to go to college, and in doing so found most degrees hardly worth the paper they were printed on while landed gentry reaped the windfall of college loan income. conversely tradecraft like welding, carpentry, HVAC, engine repair, and plumbing fell by the wayside with many of these crafts given a scarlet letter and left to beg and plead for any help whatsoever. there is still plenty of work, its just been made obscure and wicked by a hand that cant reap any lending profit from it. If welding, carpentry, HVAC and so on were clearly strong career paths, people would have figured this out and ignored the college advice. Skilled trades have the potential to be great careers, but fall short. 1. They just don't pay enough. You can go to college and learn computer science and at 22 years old have a shot at making $100K+ or even more in expensive COL areas. In the trades, you have lots of training, apprenticeships, seniority... how many years does it take to get to $100K as a welder? 2. The work is tough on your body, which has a shelf life. As opposed to an office worker who can sit in his office chair, collecting a salary, until he dies of old age. I supposed these two points can be mitigated by learning the business and eventually running your own contracting company, where you siphon your profits and employ younger bodies. But not everyone can/will go down that path. I agree with you about the drug and background checks. I'm sure they don't help either.

subradios 4y ago
I think comparing the trades to the hottest intellectual profession on the planet with extremely heavy competition is extremely misguided. The whiteboard torture test exists because there are tens of thousands of candidates and only hundreds of those actually have a pulse when it comes to developing software. I'm not talking about implementing Kadane's or Dijkstra's, I'm talking about fizzbuzz, basic control structures, etc.

potta_coffee 4y ago

If welding paid, I'd be doing that rather than sitting at my computer dealing with corporate bullshit. I didn't get a degree but I'm still sitting here coding and not welding. I'm just saying I think there's more to the issue than that we sent people to college. The trades just don't pay well enough.