4 ms·

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Nuclear is an ideal base load provider because nuclear plants really like to run 100% of the time, only shu

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Nuclear is an ideal base load provider because nuclear plants really like to run 100% of the time, only shutting down for refueling or maintenance. Which is exactly what you want to meet a demand that exists 100% of the time. If you have enough generation, nuclear is an ideal base load provider.

tpm 4y ago
That's exactly the counterpoint I'm trying to make: a lot of French reactors were and are down "for maintenance", making it very much not the ideal base, or any, load provider. That's something we never hear from nuclear power proponents, why?
- TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
  My understanding is France's electricity issues are mostly due to shutting down all their gas and coal power plants. As a result, the confluence of maintenance and safety updates to the nuclear fleet are a greater issue effecting supply than they otherwise would be. Compare USA in 2021, nuclear provided 19% of electricity while having only 8% of total nameplate capacity. https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/what-generation-capacity https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/what-generation-capacity
  - xg15 4y ago
    Many french power plants use nearby rivers as a source of coolant. A big issue last summer was that rivers carried not enough water to reliably provide cooling. Thanks to climate change, this situation will likely become more common in the future.
    - trashtester 4y ago
      France's electrical grid has a vastly lower climate footprint than, for instance, Germany's, due to the nuclear plants. If it turns out that water supply remains and issue in future years (and was not just a fluke), I expect they will find ways around that (either by allowing sligtly warmer spill water or by using hydro dams to store more energy for the summer. Anyway, Germany and France are essentially the same grid, so differences in consumer prices tend to be determined largly by transport costs and the costs of neighboring countries. German power gets cheap when they can import from Scandinavia, Poland and Central Europe, and expensive when they have to export to those. French power is similarly affected by imports/exports to Spain, Italy and the UK. If you want to compare nuclear costs to other sources, you have to look at production costs for PLANNABLE energy for a conglomerate of sources, adjusted for risks and externalities (dry spells, reliance on dictatorships or other unstable or adverserial countries, market prices for commodities, pollution and climate change, etc). If you adjust for all externalities, especially polution and climate change, I'm convinced French electrical production is far, far cheaper per stable GW of output than Germany's.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  Everything needs maintenance. That doesn't mean it's not the best base load provider.
  - tpm 4y ago
    Sure. And as a result, the EU country with most nuclear plants had the most expensive energy production during last year.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      Burning gas is certainly cheaper. Let's hope it doesn't run out, pollute the earth, or fund a war.
      - tpm 4y ago
        That does not change the fact that nuclear plants are currently failing at providing sufficient baseload capacity in the one EU country that has the most of them.
        robertlagrant 4y ago
        Yes, that's true. You're misinterpreting that fact. That's the problem. France wants to extend the lifetime of fully depreciated reactors, and hasn't provisioned enough capacity to do all the maintenance required. That could happen with any generation method.
        tpm 4y ago
        Yet it has happened with this generation method. In fact the problem has more causes: France has stopped investing in new nuclear plants, in part because they felt safe the old plants will continue to work as usual which they won't as we see, but also because their new EPR design is a complete failure. The Flamanville EPR plant was scheduled to go productive in 2012. It's 2023 and it still isn't. Olkiluoto, another EPR in Finland went briefly productive in 2022 but soon new faults were discovered. And don't even look at the cost overruns for these plants. So the current situation is EDF will be nationalized to avoid going bankrupt, and who knows when and if the stress corrosion issue with older reactors will be resolved. Let's just hope there will be enough water in the rivers and reservoirs for them to use, because the droughts are worsening. Meanwhile the EPR reactors are still not working and their construction company Areva was taken over by EDF to avoid going bankrupt. But I do not live in France, I live in Slovakia and we have another nuclear plant under construction, Mochovce 3. Mochovce 3 construction was restarted in 2008, to be finished in 2014. It's 2023 and any time now it should be finally going productive, after a 15 year construction and about 300% cost overruns. And the energy company may have to be saved by the state as a result. And these are not exceptions, it's the same for Hinkley Point C in the UK and probably other new plants at least in Europe as well. So it's very strange when someone writes about stable and cheap nuclear energy production and somehow never mentions current huge issues with it.

tpm 4y ago

That's exactly the counterpoint I'm trying to make: a lot of French reactors were and are down "for maintenance", making it very much not the ideal base, or any, load provider. That's something we never hear from nuclear power proponents, why?

TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
My understanding is France's electricity issues are mostly due to shutting down all their gas and coal power plants. As a result, the confluence of maintenance and safety updates to the nuclear fleet are a greater issue effecting supply than they otherwise would be. Compare USA in 2021, nuclear provided 19% of electricity while having only 8% of total nameplate capacity. https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/what-generation-capacity https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/what-generation-capacity
- xg15 4y ago
  Many french power plants use nearby rivers as a source of coolant. A big issue last summer was that rivers carried not enough water to reliably provide cooling. Thanks to climate change, this situation will likely become more common in the future.
  - trashtester 4y ago
    France's electrical grid has a vastly lower climate footprint than, for instance, Germany's, due to the nuclear plants. If it turns out that water supply remains and issue in future years (and was not just a fluke), I expect they will find ways around that (either by allowing sligtly warmer spill water or by using hydro dams to store more energy for the summer. Anyway, Germany and France are essentially the same grid, so differences in consumer prices tend to be determined largly by transport costs and the costs of neighboring countries. German power gets cheap when they can import from Scandinavia, Poland and Central Europe, and expensive when they have to export to those. French power is similarly affected by imports/exports to Spain, Italy and the UK. If you want to compare nuclear costs to other sources, you have to look at production costs for PLANNABLE energy for a conglomerate of sources, adjusted for risks and externalities (dry spells, reliance on dictatorships or other unstable or adverserial countries, market prices for commodities, pollution and climate change, etc). If you adjust for all externalities, especially polution and climate change, I'm convinced French electrical production is far, far cheaper per stable GW of output than Germany's.
robertlagrant 4y ago
Everything needs maintenance. That doesn't mean it's not the best base load provider.
- tpm 4y ago
  Sure. And as a result, the EU country with most nuclear plants had the most expensive energy production during last year.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    Burning gas is certainly cheaper. Let's hope it doesn't run out, pollute the earth, or fund a war.
    - tpm 4y ago
      That does not change the fact that nuclear plants are currently failing at providing sufficient baseload capacity in the one EU country that has the most of them.
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        Yes, that's true. You're misinterpreting that fact. That's the problem. France wants to extend the lifetime of fully depreciated reactors, and hasn't provisioned enough capacity to do all the maintenance required. That could happen with any generation method.
        tpm 4y ago
        Yet it has happened with this generation method. In fact the problem has more causes: France has stopped investing in new nuclear plants, in part because they felt safe the old plants will continue to work as usual which they won't as we see, but also because their new EPR design is a complete failure. The Flamanville EPR plant was scheduled to go productive in 2012. It's 2023 and it still isn't. Olkiluoto, another EPR in Finland went briefly productive in 2022 but soon new faults were discovered. And don't even look at the cost overruns for these plants. So the current situation is EDF will be nationalized to avoid going bankrupt, and who knows when and if the stress corrosion issue with older reactors will be resolved. Let's just hope there will be enough water in the rivers and reservoirs for them to use, because the droughts are worsening. Meanwhile the EPR reactors are still not working and their construction company Areva was taken over by EDF to avoid going bankrupt. But I do not live in France, I live in Slovakia and we have another nuclear plant under construction, Mochovce 3. Mochovce 3 construction was restarted in 2008, to be finished in 2014. It's 2023 and any time now it should be finally going productive, after a 15 year construction and about 300% cost overruns. And the energy company may have to be saved by the state as a result. And these are not exceptions, it's the same for Hinkley Point C in the UK and probably other new plants at least in Europe as well. So it's very strange when someone writes about stable and cheap nuclear energy production and somehow never mentions current huge issues with it.