13 ms·

“One of the best things for society” is a very very bold claim. For the uninformed like myself how would psychedelic therapy be THIS beneficial?

chaps 4y ago
Just one example: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/psilocybin-mushroom-help-people-alcohol-use-disorder-rcna44180 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/psilocybin-mush... "More than 80% of those who were given the psychedelic treatment had drastically reduced their drinking eight months after the study started, compared to just over 50% in the antihistamine control group, according to results published Wednesday in JAMA Psychiatry. At the end of the trial, half of those who received psilocybin had quit drinking altogether, compared to about one-quarter of those who were given the antihistamine."
- gausswho 4y ago
  that the placebo led to abstinence in 25% of cases makes me concerned about a selection bias in the pool
  - SeanAnderson 4y ago
    What % would you expect to be affected by the placebo?
    - chairmanwow1 4y ago
      I think most adults are in a steady state for their habitual behaviors around diet / exercise / drinking / drugs. Would be surprised by anything larger than 10% change in control tbh
      - TylerE 4y ago
        FTA: "helped people with alcohol use disorder reduce drinking for at least eight months after their first treatments, results from the largest clinical trial of its kind show." This isn't a genpop study.
        TylerE 4y ago
        Also, both prongs were given psychotherapy, also.
  - boomboomsubban 4y ago
    Is it that hard to imagine twelve psychotherapy sessions convincing someone to quit drinking for eight months?
    - more_corn 4y ago
      Have you ever met an alcoholic?
      - boomboomsubban 4y ago
        Yes. I've also met former alcoholics, and people who quit for a while then started drinking again. Twelve weeks of therapy leading to eight months of sobriety for 25% of people does not seem surprising.
- rhacker 4y ago
  Sounds like anti-histamines are a good mechanism to stop drinking!
  - chaps 4y ago
    No need for the silly reductionist snark there, friend. They were also given 12 psychotherapy sessions during the 8mo study.
pigtailgirl 4y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxm8QwvESJk&ab_channel=TEDMED https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxm8QwvESJk&ab_channel=TEDME... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02872-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02872-9 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2206443 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2206443 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8156539/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8156539/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8901083/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8901083/ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2772630?resultClick=1 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...
say_it_as_it_is 4y ago
It can help treat a range of issues: addictions, various traumas, depression, fears and anxieties. Also, it can be very dangerous for anyone with genetic predispositions to a range of mental health issues, such as bipolarism and schizophrenia, so anyone who is dealing with mental health issues ought to know their family history or get personally tested for the genetic markers.
- meowmeowmoo 4y ago
  They have genetic markers for all these? Any good test recommendations?
  - marmadukester39 4y ago
    Very interested to know this
- paisleypepper 4y ago
  This is very serious. My brother's schizophrenia started while I sat with him on the grass trying to comfort him after he had taken mushrooms. This led to moment after moment of things that are difficult to for me to talk about. My family spent 3 Christmases at the state hospital to be with him. Thanks to the help he was able to get at the hospital and through continued care, he's now able to live with my parents. Please be wise.
hericium 4y ago
Psychiatry barely understands HOW exactly many prescription meds work so don't expect exact answer on how non-prescription substances work. But if approached properly, single session with psychedelics may have beneficial effects of months or even years of psychotherapy. Week or two after such session you start noticing that some things simply stopped being problematic.
- briffle 4y ago
  nothing better than seeing expensive ad-buys for very expensive drugs, and they say "XXXXX is thought to work by".. you have spent millions on development, billions on marketing, and you think???
  - hericium 4y ago
    Substances are tested and when it is found that they have beneficial effects on certain conditions, outweighing negative side-effects in individuals with these conditions - they are accepted for use after clinical phases. Would you rather have no meds for some conditions because we don't fully understand how existing ones work, or would you dissect living humans' brains for faster research?
bjt2n3904 4y ago
What you're witnessing is a radical restructuring of what is socially acceptable, or seen as good. This statement about what is "good for society" can't be evaluated by statistics or metrics. It has to be believed, taken on faith. Oh, they'll cite studies about miraculous results with overcoming addiction and depression. Pardon me for being skeptical about the massive amount of junk science that has over promised, under delivered, or been outright unrepeatable. This is no different than the "AI" algorithms that are quickly making their way into decision making in society. It's a black box that worked great in the lab, so let's ship it to everyone. Surely it will be good for us!
- burnished 4y ago
  I think you might be missing all the first hand experiences where it was a powerful good. Or maybe not, those have to be taken on faith after all. Not that being skeptical about this is bad, frankly its good, but probably best when it is specific and focused into criticism.
- lurquer 4y ago
  Don’t remove fences unless you are damn sure why they were put up in the first place. The Gods of the Copybook Headings will return as they always do.
  - Stupulous 4y ago
    It's not as though this is some thousand-year-old fence; psychadelics were illegalized under Nixon. If there was a reason other than 'they are drugs', it has not been made public, and all research at the time suggested that they should not have been illegalized. I'm open to being told I'm wrong, but 3 pages of google results did not push me in that direction.
    - notch656c 4y ago
      These drugs have been illegal for a lifetime. It's hard to get people to accept even overwhelmingly beneficial technology into the main fold of society. I'm not optimistic anything beyond weed is gonna get legalized federally in our lifetime.
Stupulous 4y ago
As a depression treatment, it far exceeds the state-of-the-art SSRIs, which perform only slightly better than placebo. It's cheaper, more effective, and lasts longer. ~10% of Americans suffer from depression, and more than a third of them don't respond to SSRIs at all. Dramatically reducing the suffering of 3% of the population at net-negative cost is a big deal. For comparison to topics-de-jour, in the US 0.3% of the population will get an abortion in a given year, 3.5% are gay/bi, 0.3% are trans, <0.03% die from gun violence (and over half are suicides potentially reduced by this treatment) each year, and about 1/40th of them are killed by law enforcement. Improvements in these areas will have a smaller effect size (ie. protecting gay marriage will not improve the lives of gay people as much as curing someone's depression will, gun control will not end all gun violence). Big caveat here is that this treatment is relatively new, and depression treatments tend to be promising initially with results that fade in the long term. Additionally, the legalization of that treatment does not mean everyone who needs it will get it. On the other hand, depression is only one of the many issues that can be treated with psychadelics. We'll have to wait and see
- lostmsu 4y ago
  I am curious about side effects, especially long term IQ changes.
  - Stupulous 4y ago
    Absolutely, I should have brought up risks as well. Triggering early schizophrenia is a big one, personality changes also seem like a significant concern. I'm not aware of any IQ changes- if you have a study, send it my way if you please. If you're just gesturing at the fact that long-term research is lacking, I'm very much in agreement.
  - w1nst0nsm1th 4y ago
    Hallucigenic drugs are probably not good for math performance.
- bradly 4y ago
  Fwiw at least in the US it not likely to be cheaper. Until covered by insurance, a professionally administered experience will most likely be be similar to a guided ketemine session which is currently around $450 a session when it costs penny to make.
throwaway4aday 4y ago
I think it could still qualify if the only outcome is that it reduces the amount of resources and power given over to enforcement agencies in the drug war. However, we won't see positive outcomes unless that energy is redirected towards prosecuting actual crimes committed against people and property. If psychological and medical research on psychoactive substances is successfully resumed I believe we will see helpful and possibly ground breaking applications of these drugs. They're indisputably powerful compounds, the question is simply whether those effects can be harnessed by medicine and therapy to provide long lasting interventions.
Loveaway 4y ago
Humans are the most insane species on this planet. Most problems of society do not stem from a lack of resources, but from a severe cluelessness of our own nature. If you could ask any animal for advise on the human condition, I'd bet they'd be utterly baffled as to wtf we're doing or trying to do. Mushrooms give perspective. Among all the noise, they tend to reveal a more sane view of life and let people recognize what's truly important. I think if more people are open for trying it society will likely change for the better.

chaps 4y ago

Just one example: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/psilocybin-mushroom-help-people-alcohol-use-disorder-rcna44180 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/psilocybin-mush... "More than 80% of those who were given the psychedelic treatment had drastically reduced their drinking eight months after the study started, compared to just over 50% in the antihistamine control group, according to results published Wednesday in JAMA Psychiatry. At the end of the trial, half of those who received psilocybin had quit drinking altogether, compared to about one-quarter of those who were given the antihistamine."

gausswho 4y ago
that the placebo led to abstinence in 25% of cases makes me concerned about a selection bias in the pool
- SeanAnderson 4y ago
  What % would you expect to be affected by the placebo?
  - chairmanwow1 4y ago
    I think most adults are in a steady state for their habitual behaviors around diet / exercise / drinking / drugs. Would be surprised by anything larger than 10% change in control tbh
    - TylerE 4y ago
      FTA: "helped people with alcohol use disorder reduce drinking for at least eight months after their first treatments, results from the largest clinical trial of its kind show." This isn't a genpop study.
      - TylerE 4y ago
        Also, both prongs were given psychotherapy, also.
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  Is it that hard to imagine twelve psychotherapy sessions convincing someone to quit drinking for eight months?
  - more_corn 4y ago
    Have you ever met an alcoholic?
    - boomboomsubban 4y ago
      Yes. I've also met former alcoholics, and people who quit for a while then started drinking again. Twelve weeks of therapy leading to eight months of sobriety for 25% of people does not seem surprising.
rhacker 4y ago
Sounds like anti-histamines are a good mechanism to stop drinking!
- chaps 4y ago
  No need for the silly reductionist snark there, friend. They were also given 12 psychotherapy sessions during the 8mo study.

pigtailgirl 4y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxm8QwvESJk&ab_channel=TEDMED https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxm8QwvESJk&ab_channel=TEDME... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02872-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02872-9 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2206443 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2206443 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8156539/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8156539/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8901083/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8901083/ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2772630?resultClick=1 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...

say_it_as_it_is 4y ago

It can help treat a range of issues: addictions, various traumas, depression, fears and anxieties. Also, it can be very dangerous for anyone with genetic predispositions to a range of mental health issues, such as bipolarism and schizophrenia, so anyone who is dealing with mental health issues ought to know their family history or get personally tested for the genetic markers.

meowmeowmoo 4y ago
They have genetic markers for all these? Any good test recommendations?
- marmadukester39 4y ago
  Very interested to know this
paisleypepper 4y ago
This is very serious. My brother's schizophrenia started while I sat with him on the grass trying to comfort him after he had taken mushrooms. This led to moment after moment of things that are difficult to for me to talk about. My family spent 3 Christmases at the state hospital to be with him. Thanks to the help he was able to get at the hospital and through continued care, he's now able to live with my parents. Please be wise.

hericium 4y ago

Psychiatry barely understands HOW exactly many prescription meds work so don't expect exact answer on how non-prescription substances work. But if approached properly, single session with psychedelics may have beneficial effects of months or even years of psychotherapy. Week or two after such session you start noticing that some things simply stopped being problematic.

briffle 4y ago
nothing better than seeing expensive ad-buys for very expensive drugs, and they say "XXXXX is thought to work by".. you have spent millions on development, billions on marketing, and you think???
- hericium 4y ago
  Substances are tested and when it is found that they have beneficial effects on certain conditions, outweighing negative side-effects in individuals with these conditions - they are accepted for use after clinical phases. Would you rather have no meds for some conditions because we don't fully understand how existing ones work, or would you dissect living humans' brains for faster research?

bjt2n3904 4y ago

What you're witnessing is a radical restructuring of what is socially acceptable, or seen as good. This statement about what is "good for society" can't be evaluated by statistics or metrics. It has to be believed, taken on faith. Oh, they'll cite studies about miraculous results with overcoming addiction and depression. Pardon me for being skeptical about the massive amount of junk science that has over promised, under delivered, or been outright unrepeatable. This is no different than the "AI" algorithms that are quickly making their way into decision making in society. It's a black box that worked great in the lab, so let's ship it to everyone. Surely it will be good for us!

burnished 4y ago
I think you might be missing all the first hand experiences where it was a powerful good. Or maybe not, those have to be taken on faith after all. Not that being skeptical about this is bad, frankly its good, but probably best when it is specific and focused into criticism.
lurquer 4y ago
Don’t remove fences unless you are damn sure why they were put up in the first place. The Gods of the Copybook Headings will return as they always do.
- Stupulous 4y ago
  It's not as though this is some thousand-year-old fence; psychadelics were illegalized under Nixon. If there was a reason other than 'they are drugs', it has not been made public, and all research at the time suggested that they should not have been illegalized. I'm open to being told I'm wrong, but 3 pages of google results did not push me in that direction.
  - notch656c 4y ago
    These drugs have been illegal for a lifetime. It's hard to get people to accept even overwhelmingly beneficial technology into the main fold of society. I'm not optimistic anything beyond weed is gonna get legalized federally in our lifetime.

Stupulous 4y ago

As a depression treatment, it far exceeds the state-of-the-art SSRIs, which perform only slightly better than placebo. It's cheaper, more effective, and lasts longer. ~10% of Americans suffer from depression, and more than a third of them don't respond to SSRIs at all. Dramatically reducing the suffering of 3% of the population at net-negative cost is a big deal. For comparison to topics-de-jour, in the US 0.3% of the population will get an abortion in a given year, 3.5% are gay/bi, 0.3% are trans, <0.03% die from gun violence (and over half are suicides potentially reduced by this treatment) each year, and about 1/40th of them are killed by law enforcement. Improvements in these areas will have a smaller effect size (ie. protecting gay marriage will not improve the lives of gay people as much as curing someone's depression will, gun control will not end all gun violence). Big caveat here is that this treatment is relatively new, and depression treatments tend to be promising initially with results that fade in the long term. Additionally, the legalization of that treatment does not mean everyone who needs it will get it. On the other hand, depression is only one of the many issues that can be treated with psychadelics. We'll have to wait and see

lostmsu 4y ago
I am curious about side effects, especially long term IQ changes.
- Stupulous 4y ago
  Absolutely, I should have brought up risks as well. Triggering early schizophrenia is a big one, personality changes also seem like a significant concern. I'm not aware of any IQ changes- if you have a study, send it my way if you please. If you're just gesturing at the fact that long-term research is lacking, I'm very much in agreement.
- w1nst0nsm1th 4y ago
  Hallucigenic drugs are probably not good for math performance.
bradly 4y ago
Fwiw at least in the US it not likely to be cheaper. Until covered by insurance, a professionally administered experience will most likely be be similar to a guided ketemine session which is currently around $450 a session when it costs penny to make.

throwaway4aday 4y ago

I think it could still qualify if the only outcome is that it reduces the amount of resources and power given over to enforcement agencies in the drug war. However, we won't see positive outcomes unless that energy is redirected towards prosecuting actual crimes committed against people and property. If psychological and medical research on psychoactive substances is successfully resumed I believe we will see helpful and possibly ground breaking applications of these drugs. They're indisputably powerful compounds, the question is simply whether those effects can be harnessed by medicine and therapy to provide long lasting interventions.

Loveaway 4y ago

Humans are the most insane species on this planet. Most problems of society do not stem from a lack of resources, but from a severe cluelessness of our own nature. If you could ask any animal for advise on the human condition, I'd bet they'd be utterly baffled as to wtf we're doing or trying to do. Mushrooms give perspective. Among all the noise, they tend to reveal a more sane view of life and let people recognize what's truly important. I think if more people are open for trying it society will likely change for the better.