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Western gear like that is very different in terms of maintenance to the Soviet era gear Ukraine has been making use of. Even if there wasn't some theoretical a

Western gear like that is very different in terms of maintenance to the Soviet era gear Ukraine has been making use of. Even if there wasn't some theoretical advantage to prolonging Russia's engagement to bleed them, or the risk of current tech falling into enemy hands, there just isn't the infrastructure in place to keep Abrams etc in the fight. Hell the fuel and ammo difference alone would be a logistical nightmare.

H8crilA 4y ago
Abrams famously runs on any fuel because it has a jet engine. In any case fuel is not a problem now. Ammo is already supplied in western standards (for example 155mm, even precision shells) in hundreds of thousands of tons.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  The Abrams runs on "any" fuel but uses significantly more of that fuel to do anything. This works fine for America because we invest heavily into logistics in the military, but other countries probably won't be helped by having to double up their supply to most tank operations.
  - H8crilA 4y ago
    Fuel really isn't a problem there any more, and neither is logistics broadly speaking. They received hundreds of thousands of tons of military support. Supply up to the Ukrainian border of specific weapon systems is, specifically slow political decisions. It seems there is no consensus that Ukraine should decisively win. And even if they get an Abrams that has half the range they'd take it at this point.
dmos62 4y ago
> there just isn't the infrastructure in place to keep Abrams etc in the fight. Afaik, while that's true for Abrams, it doesn't hold for Leopards. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can comment.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  Didn't Germany just have a situation where many of their own tanks broke during an exercise?
  - H8crilA 4y ago
    It was Pumas, IFVs not tanks. The newest of the new, just a slightly failed rollout, they're already fixed. It's not uncommon at all for new weapon systems. We're talking oldest Leopards and Marders here. Also, it's not just about the vehicles in the Bundeswehr. It's about rallying the Rheinmetall clients to create a pool that can be donated from various European countries, for example adding the excuse to upgrade the european fleet to the latest Leopard standard. It has to start with political decisions, though. The Bundeswehr is fully behind this proposal (it was purposefully leaked to the press early on in the war).
    - codethief 4y ago
      > The Bundeswehr is fully behind this proposal (it was purposefully leaked to the press early on in the war). Not questioning this but do you have a source for that?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - H8crilA 4y ago
        https://www.politico.eu/article/scholz-holds-up-german-tank-delivery-to-ukraine/ https://www.politico.eu/article/scholz-holds-up-german-tank-... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/olaf-scholz-german-chancellor-denied-kyiv-most-weapons-it-wanted-cldlgbcsq https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/olaf-scholz-german-chance... It doesn't say that the Bundeswehr was behind it, though. Just that "other top officials" were.
        codethief 4y ago
        Thanks!
keewee7 4y ago
Most heavy US military vehicles like the Abrams can run on gasoline, diesel and jet fuel.
- somat 4y ago
  In fact it is all us military that use diesel fuel. Note that jet fuel is high grade diesel fuel and jet-a is the specific formulation that the us military runs on. They go out of their way to make everything diesel. two notable examples: there is a motorcycle reconisence squad and the us army had custom Kawasaki klr made with diesel engines for them. the lycoming company had a great deal of trouble making a small diesel engine for a little army drone. The lycoming el-005 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW2T2lvQXBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW2T2lvQXBM The reason is logistics, the army only wants to ship one type of fuel, and go out of their way to make that happen.
  - itsyaboi 4y ago
    Jet-A is the commercial diesel variant. Military uses JP8 which is Jet-A + anti-corrosion/static additives.
jccooper 4y ago
Ukraine is already running a whole zoo of Western and Soviet artillery, MLRS, IFVs, APCs, trucks, anti-air, UAVs, air-to-ground, heavy and light infantry arms, and more. I'm sure it's less than ideal logistically, but it's being done and I don't see that managing a bunch of Leopards is impossible when they're already feeding a bunch of CAESARs and M113s and whatnot.

H8crilA 4y ago

Abrams famously runs on any fuel because it has a jet engine. In any case fuel is not a problem now. Ammo is already supplied in western standards (for example 155mm, even precision shells) in hundreds of thousands of tons.

mrguyorama 4y ago
The Abrams runs on "any" fuel but uses significantly more of that fuel to do anything. This works fine for America because we invest heavily into logistics in the military, but other countries probably won't be helped by having to double up their supply to most tank operations.
- H8crilA 4y ago
  Fuel really isn't a problem there any more, and neither is logistics broadly speaking. They received hundreds of thousands of tons of military support. Supply up to the Ukrainian border of specific weapon systems is, specifically slow political decisions. It seems there is no consensus that Ukraine should decisively win. And even if they get an Abrams that has half the range they'd take it at this point.

dmos62 4y ago

> there just isn't the infrastructure in place to keep Abrams etc in the fight. Afaik, while that's true for Abrams, it doesn't hold for Leopards. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can comment.

ajmurmann 4y ago
Didn't Germany just have a situation where many of their own tanks broke during an exercise?
- H8crilA 4y ago
  It was Pumas, IFVs not tanks. The newest of the new, just a slightly failed rollout, they're already fixed. It's not uncommon at all for new weapon systems. We're talking oldest Leopards and Marders here. Also, it's not just about the vehicles in the Bundeswehr. It's about rallying the Rheinmetall clients to create a pool that can be donated from various European countries, for example adding the excuse to upgrade the european fleet to the latest Leopard standard. It has to start with political decisions, though. The Bundeswehr is fully behind this proposal (it was purposefully leaked to the press early on in the war).
  - codethief 4y ago
    > The Bundeswehr is fully behind this proposal (it was purposefully leaked to the press early on in the war). Not questioning this but do you have a source for that?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - H8crilA 4y ago
      https://www.politico.eu/article/scholz-holds-up-german-tank-delivery-to-ukraine/ https://www.politico.eu/article/scholz-holds-up-german-tank-... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/olaf-scholz-german-chancellor-denied-kyiv-most-weapons-it-wanted-cldlgbcsq https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/olaf-scholz-german-chance... It doesn't say that the Bundeswehr was behind it, though. Just that "other top officials" were.
      - codethief 4y ago
        Thanks!

keewee7 4y ago

Most heavy US military vehicles like the Abrams can run on gasoline, diesel and jet fuel.

somat 4y ago
In fact it is all us military that use diesel fuel. Note that jet fuel is high grade diesel fuel and jet-a is the specific formulation that the us military runs on. They go out of their way to make everything diesel. two notable examples: there is a motorcycle reconisence squad and the us army had custom Kawasaki klr made with diesel engines for them. the lycoming company had a great deal of trouble making a small diesel engine for a little army drone. The lycoming el-005 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW2T2lvQXBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW2T2lvQXBM The reason is logistics, the army only wants to ship one type of fuel, and go out of their way to make that happen.
- itsyaboi 4y ago
  Jet-A is the commercial diesel variant. Military uses JP8 which is Jet-A + anti-corrosion/static additives.

jccooper 4y ago

Ukraine is already running a whole zoo of Western and Soviet artillery, MLRS, IFVs, APCs, trucks, anti-air, UAVs, air-to-ground, heavy and light infantry arms, and more. I'm sure it's less than ideal logistically, but it's being done and I don't see that managing a bunch of Leopards is impossible when they're already feeding a bunch of CAESARs and M113s and whatnot.