3 ms·

> I think a lot of “modern” languages get this right by including these things from the start. The experience is so much better. I don't know how others did it

by scoutt 4y ago

> I think a lot of “modern” languages get this right by including these things from the start. The experience is so much better. I don't know how others did it, but I learned with MS Visual C++ in 1996. File -> New Project -> press F7 to compile, F5 to debug. That's it. ~30 years ago they got it right. I even remember my Windows CE experience ~15 years ago that allowed to build and debug the entire OS from an IDE. Now you have to open your command line and write like it's 1985. Today VS is free (Visual Studio Express?), with analyzers, tests, vcpkg, etc. There is also Qt and other similar tools that I use for embedded like Keil, IAR, Eclipse derivates, etc. C++ != Makefiles. I don't write Makefiles or fiddle with the build system since... ever?. Except for some AOSP stuff that still uses them or perhaps editing some linker script for embedded. PS: that said, "experience" is relative. Having to use the command line in general but mostly for learning is terrible.

13of40 4y ago
I've always thought it was a little bit pathological that we require application developers to also be experts in build and deployment. The parts that can't be automated away should be handled by (highly paid) specialists so when your dev is deciding whether to make a change they don't have to factor in how it gets from their box to production.
meindnoch 4y ago
And then when something goes wrong, you’ll be staring at an opaque .vcproj file without any idea of what’s going on under the hood and how to fix it.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  For many kinds of projects, good luck doing it the makefile way (CMake, or whatever one fancies). Yak shaving learning how to use all the compiler and linker flags, and library setup before writing any line of code. Debugging vcproj files is as easy as going down the boilerplate generated by shell scripts and build generators.
  - meindnoch 4y ago
    But at least I can see the commands being ran by `make` and work backwards from there. In VisualStudio you have to click around in a bunch of “Properties” menus (which may or may not have search boxes…) and eventually you may find what you’re looking for.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Just like with make, you run msbuild with verbosity flags.
    - metaltyphoon 4y ago
      msbuildlog.com

by scoutt 4y ago

13of40 4y ago

I've always thought it was a little bit pathological that we require application developers to also be experts in build and deployment. The parts that can't be automated away should be handled by (highly paid) specialists so when your dev is deciding whether to make a change they don't have to factor in how it gets from their box to production.

meindnoch 4y ago

And then when something goes wrong, you’ll be staring at an opaque .vcproj file without any idea of what’s going on under the hood and how to fix it.

pjmlp 4y ago
For many kinds of projects, good luck doing it the makefile way (CMake, or whatever one fancies). Yak shaving learning how to use all the compiler and linker flags, and library setup before writing any line of code. Debugging vcproj files is as easy as going down the boilerplate generated by shell scripts and build generators.
- meindnoch 4y ago
  But at least I can see the commands being ran by `make` and work backwards from there. In VisualStudio you have to click around in a bunch of “Properties” menus (which may or may not have search boxes…) and eventually you may find what you’re looking for.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Just like with make, you run msbuild with verbosity flags.
  - metaltyphoon 4y ago
    msbuildlog.com