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Blow and Carmack are game programmers. They are brilliant, but their local programs and data are tiny compared to distributed systems over social graphs, where

by hgsgm 4y ago

Blow and Carmack are game programmers. They are brilliant, but their local programs and data are tiny compared to distributed systems over social graphs, where N^2 user-user edges interact.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
You say that like real-time multiplayer gaming doesn't exist or something. Both of them have worked on those.... I think Carmack invented a lot of the techniques we use for those. Yeah sure, the scale is smaller, but you can't get away with making the user wait 10 seconds to render text and images to a screen either. I think the software world might be a lot better place if more developers thought like game developers.
- ivanhoe 4y ago
  Let's not turn it into penis measuring contents, please. Code organization and requirements differ significantly between different programming niches, and the today's accepted practices are not some randomly invented caprices, but the result of the slow (and painful) evolution we've been fighting through past decades. Each niche has optimized over time for its own needs and requirements. My web apis have hundreds of controllers and keeping them in separate files makes it way easier to manage. I know that because we used to keep it all in a single file and it sucked, so over time I learned not to do it anymore. Does it mean that embedded systems devs should organize their code in the same way? I have no idea, that's up to them to decide, based on their specific environment, code and experience.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    > Each niche has optimized over time for its own needs and requirements. Sure, but those "needs and requirements" aren't necessarily aligned with things that produce good software, and I think a lot of software development these days is not aligned. Further, I think the evolutionary path of the web in particular has produced a monstrosity that we'd be better off scrapping and starting over with at this point, but that's a tangential discussion.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    > My web apis have hundreds of controllers That you probably don't even need, but there's a paradigm of "every function should be it's own class" that some devs seem to follow that I will never understand.
    - ivanhoe 4y ago
      I don't do one function one class mantra, but I absolutely need the separate controllers to group methods because each set of them does different things and returns different data. If in my 20+ years of web dev I learned one thing, it's that trying to be too smart with code optimizations and mixing different logic together is never a good idea - it will always backfire on you and everything you "saved" will be nullified by extra time and effort when you're forced to untangle it in future. The whole point of what I wrote was that there's no recipes that can be just uncritically applied anywhere, you need to adapt your style to your particular needs and experience. If you don't need many controllers, great for you... but don't presume you can just copy/paste your own experience on every other project out there, and we all are stupid for doing it differently...
phkahler 4y ago
Seems like you're talking about algorithms issues, not code complexity. If your code needs to scale (at all, never mind quadratically) with the size of the data, you're doing something very wrong.
dmitriid 4y ago
You greatly underestimate the complexity of games, and greatly overestimate the complexity of working with distributed systems over social graphs
- mypalmike 4y ago
  I've worked extensively in both. Both are complex. Games typically have a complexity that requires more careful thinking at the microscopic level (we must do all this game state stuff within 16ms). Web service complexity requires careful thinking about overall systems architecture (we must be able to bring up 10x normal capacity during user surges while avoiding cost overruns). The solutions to these problems overlap in some ways, but are mostly rather different.
Olreich 4y ago
Their programs interact with different APIs and constraints on many different sets of hardware. 5 different major hardware targets, 8 operating systems, and hundreds of versions of driver software. It’s hard to do all that well and keep things validated to continue running with minimal ability to update and support it. Web programs barely work on two browsers. Server targets are generally reduced to a single target (Docker or a specific distribution of Linux). Their tiny data is rendering millions of polygons with real-time lighting, asset loading in the background, low latency input handling, etc. at 60fps+. If my API responds to the user in 100ms, they’re ecstatic. If their game responds to the user in 100ms (5-10 dropped frames) even a few times, they’re likely to ask for a refund or write a bad review, hurting sales. The constraints are different, but game programmers do the same kinds of optimization social networks do, just for different problems. They avoid doing the N^2 version of lighting, path finding, physics simulations, etc. Social networks avoid it when searching through their graphs. I think the web and other big tech companies should try thinking about problems the way game programmers do.

by hgsgm 4y ago

Blow and Carmack are game programmers. They are brilliant, but their local programs and data are tiny compared to distributed systems over social graphs, where N^2 user-user edges interact.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

You say that like real-time multiplayer gaming doesn't exist or something. Both of them have worked on those.... I think Carmack invented a lot of the techniques we use for those. Yeah sure, the scale is smaller, but you can't get away with making the user wait 10 seconds to render text and images to a screen either. I think the software world might be a lot better place if more developers thought like game developers.

ivanhoe 4y ago
Let's not turn it into penis measuring contents, please. Code organization and requirements differ significantly between different programming niches, and the today's accepted practices are not some randomly invented caprices, but the result of the slow (and painful) evolution we've been fighting through past decades. Each niche has optimized over time for its own needs and requirements. My web apis have hundreds of controllers and keeping them in separate files makes it way easier to manage. I know that because we used to keep it all in a single file and it sucked, so over time I learned not to do it anymore. Does it mean that embedded systems devs should organize their code in the same way? I have no idea, that's up to them to decide, based on their specific environment, code and experience.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  > Each niche has optimized over time for its own needs and requirements. Sure, but those "needs and requirements" aren't necessarily aligned with things that produce good software, and I think a lot of software development these days is not aligned. Further, I think the evolutionary path of the web in particular has produced a monstrosity that we'd be better off scrapping and starting over with at this point, but that's a tangential discussion.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > My web apis have hundreds of controllers That you probably don't even need, but there's a paradigm of "every function should be it's own class" that some devs seem to follow that I will never understand.
  - ivanhoe 4y ago
    I don't do one function one class mantra, but I absolutely need the separate controllers to group methods because each set of them does different things and returns different data. If in my 20+ years of web dev I learned one thing, it's that trying to be too smart with code optimizations and mixing different logic together is never a good idea - it will always backfire on you and everything you "saved" will be nullified by extra time and effort when you're forced to untangle it in future. The whole point of what I wrote was that there's no recipes that can be just uncritically applied anywhere, you need to adapt your style to your particular needs and experience. If you don't need many controllers, great for you... but don't presume you can just copy/paste your own experience on every other project out there, and we all are stupid for doing it differently...

phkahler 4y ago

Seems like you're talking about algorithms issues, not code complexity. If your code needs to scale (at all, never mind quadratically) with the size of the data, you're doing something very wrong.

dmitriid 4y ago

You greatly underestimate the complexity of games, and greatly overestimate the complexity of working with distributed systems over social graphs

mypalmike 4y ago
I've worked extensively in both. Both are complex. Games typically have a complexity that requires more careful thinking at the microscopic level (we must do all this game state stuff within 16ms). Web service complexity requires careful thinking about overall systems architecture (we must be able to bring up 10x normal capacity during user surges while avoiding cost overruns). The solutions to these problems overlap in some ways, but are mostly rather different.

Olreich 4y ago

Their programs interact with different APIs and constraints on many different sets of hardware. 5 different major hardware targets, 8 operating systems, and hundreds of versions of driver software. It’s hard to do all that well and keep things validated to continue running with minimal ability to update and support it. Web programs barely work on two browsers. Server targets are generally reduced to a single target (Docker or a specific distribution of Linux). Their tiny data is rendering millions of polygons with real-time lighting, asset loading in the background, low latency input handling, etc. at 60fps+. If my API responds to the user in 100ms, they’re ecstatic. If their game responds to the user in 100ms (5-10 dropped frames) even a few times, they’re likely to ask for a refund or write a bad review, hurting sales. The constraints are different, but game programmers do the same kinds of optimization social networks do, just for different problems. They avoid doing the N^2 version of lighting, path finding, physics simulations, etc. Social networks avoid it when searching through their graphs. I think the web and other big tech companies should try thinking about problems the way game programmers do.