3 ms·

Look, the breaking change to python3 was a disaster. There’s no need to sugar coat it. It was incompetently managed, in a way that made the technical success

Look, the breaking change to python3 was a disaster. There’s no need to sugar coat it. It was incompetently managed, in a way that made the technical success of the work look like a failure. That’s on them. They screwed up. I lived through it; I feel no particular need to smile and nod and say “it wasn’t that bad”. It was bad. Things are good now! Python 3 is great, it’s well supported and the people involved all learnt a lot about how important managing communities is, as well as writing good code. So, all round, a success! …but, if you don’t acknowledge failures in the past, you’re doomed to repeat them. > Now you might think that’s not important I don’t think your experience with Python 2 is not important; I had similar issues with it. No one is seriously going back to Python 2 at this point. However, the process is a lesson worth studying; and the take away is not “what a technical success!” … it is: never do this. Big scary breaking migrations are bad, they hurt your community, and leave bitterness behind them. Even if the result is better, technically; there are other factors that need to be considered too.

newjersey 4y ago
> No one is seriously going back to Python 2 at this point. No, the community is stupid and wrong. My machine learning professor (actual professor, not a teaching assistant) only used Python 2 in 2017. Imagine how many people had their opinions shaped by someone like them. > … it is: never do this. By that standard, we would never get things like angular 2 or Raku. Would it be better if we renamed Python 3 to some other name and pretended it was a completely new language?
- IgorPartola 4y ago
  IMO Angular 2 was a huge fail in usability. Angular 1 was a joy to use and 2 was a disaster in terms of writing code in it. However, I am firmly in the Python 3 camp. It is a better language (all the newfangled bullshit notwithstanding).
- pjc50 4y ago
  > Would it be better if we renamed Python 3 to some other name and pretended it was a completely new language? Quite possibly yes? It doesn't run python2 code, it can't be inter-linked with python2 code, so is it really the same language? The hybrid dialect that works in both does exist but you have to have compatibility shims in a few places. By comparison, most C compilers will let you use C89 and C17 code in the same project provided you set the compiler options, and C# provided the "netstandard" target for libraries to smooth the transition between Framework and Core runtimes.
- wokwokwok 4y ago
  > No, the community is wrong. Sometimes. I mean, Russ basically said that about all the work people were doing on the golang package manager and did his own thing, and it worked out. Good job! Sometimes, a smart person can do something that is better when they're deeply steeped in the domain. > No, the community is stupid. I personally find that most communities have a lot of very clever, very thoughtful people in them, and if you listen, you can learn a lot from them. Just because they don't agree with you, doesn't make them stupid. I think that its basic respect to listen to your community, acknowledge them and think about what they say, even if you go your own way. ...but, if you (as a maintainer) just think they (your community of users) are just a bunch of idiots, do whatever you like. They are idiots if they hang around in a community like that.

newjersey 4y ago

> No one is seriously going back to Python 2 at this point. No, the community is stupid and wrong. My machine learning professor (actual professor, not a teaching assistant) only used Python 2 in 2017. Imagine how many people had their opinions shaped by someone like them. > … it is: never do this. By that standard, we would never get things like angular 2 or Raku. Would it be better if we renamed Python 3 to some other name and pretended it was a completely new language?

IgorPartola 4y ago
IMO Angular 2 was a huge fail in usability. Angular 1 was a joy to use and 2 was a disaster in terms of writing code in it. However, I am firmly in the Python 3 camp. It is a better language (all the newfangled bullshit notwithstanding).
pjc50 4y ago
> Would it be better if we renamed Python 3 to some other name and pretended it was a completely new language? Quite possibly yes? It doesn't run python2 code, it can't be inter-linked with python2 code, so is it really the same language? The hybrid dialect that works in both does exist but you have to have compatibility shims in a few places. By comparison, most C compilers will let you use C89 and C17 code in the same project provided you set the compiler options, and C# provided the "netstandard" target for libraries to smooth the transition between Framework and Core runtimes.
wokwokwok 4y ago
> No, the community is wrong. Sometimes. I mean, Russ basically said that about all the work people were doing on the golang package manager and did his own thing, and it worked out. Good job! Sometimes, a smart person can do something that is better when they're deeply steeped in the domain. > No, the community is stupid. I personally find that most communities have a lot of very clever, very thoughtful people in them, and if you listen, you can learn a lot from them. Just because they don't agree with you, doesn't make them stupid. I think that its basic respect to listen to your community, acknowledge them and think about what they say, even if you go your own way. ...but, if you (as a maintainer) just think they (your community of users) are just a bunch of idiots, do whatever you like. They are idiots if they hang around in a community like that.