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If the two options are "Pixar exists, but some employees were treated unfairly" or "Pixar never exists", I will choose the first. Whether or not there are other

If the two options are "Pixar exists, but some employees were treated unfairly" or "Pixar never exists", I will choose the first. Whether or not there are other options is not a hypothetical I care about, I am interested in thinking about the morality of ends vs means of this scenario.

endorphine 4y ago
I don't understand how this dichotomy can be useful to you. Even for "ends vs means" the answer isn't always white-or-black. I see what you're saying, I just don't understand how it promotes a healthy discussion here.
ben_w 4y ago
You're suggesting an unreal scenario, so the thought experiment isn't going to do much good, IMO. Each employee gets to make that call themselves, "do I want to be treated badly?" Fresh graduates may not realise they are being treated badly, lacking a frame of reference. Immigrants may be on a visa where they have no choice but to put up with it or leave the country. Locals who've been around a bit, who know their discipline, the proven (local) best of the best? They don't stay on teams led by bullies.
- mshake2 4y ago
  It's not an unreal scenario at all. It's entirely plausible that a company falls apart when lacking the specific motivators and pressures that Jobs brought, and therefore never really exists in the first place. What's unreal about that?
  - ben_w 4y ago
    The unreal part is there being only two options. Most dichotomies are false.
    - mshake2 4y ago
      I addressed why the hypothetical is limited to two options, and taking a subset of plausible scenarios does not reduce the plausibility of the selected scenarios.
      - ben_w 4y ago
        P(a) = 0.1, P(b) = 0.1, P(c) = 0.8, "Oh, let's only look at cases a and b".
        mshake2 4y ago
        Yes, because a and b represent a specific combination I said I was interested in exploring. What you've shown doesn't lower the plausibility of those scenarios. Are you being intentionally contrarian or is there a reason why you are trying to muddy a simple thought experiment?
        ben_w 4y ago
        That makes it unreal. It changed the environment too much to exclude it. Ignoring it breaks stuff. I'm not saying thought experiments are bad — do them often myself — I'm saying my response to get thought experiment itself is: it can't work like that (riffing of an unrelated but recent comment from yesterday where I'm the one doing the thought experiment as an existence proof, it's a "spherical cow in a vacuum" model).
        mshake2 4y ago
        It's not a nonsensical "spherical cow in vacuum" thought experiment to say "Pixar exists but some employees are treated bad" vs "Pixar doesn't exist". If you think that it becomes impossible for a rational mind to weigh those two choices, then there's no point in me continuing this discussion with you.
        ben_w 4y ago
- spoonjim 4y ago
  Are you claiming that only new grads and immigrants fearful of deportation worked at Pixar?
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Depends on how much of Jobs' current reputation is accurate vs. mythologising.
    - spoonjim 4y ago
      Jobs was a well-known sociopath but also people of the highest talent level fought to work for him because he was a great executive
citizen-stig 4y ago
It is easy to choose for others, isn’t it?
- mshake2 4y ago
  "Steve took a chance on us and believed in our crazy dream of making computer-animated films; the one thing he always said was to simply 'make it great.' He is why Pixar turned out the way we did and his strength, integrity, and love of life has made us all better people. He will forever be a part of Pixar's DNA."
  - causi 4y ago
    You're quoting the top two Pixar executives, and from immediately after Jobs' death as well. How about someone who isn't a millionaire? aren't credible because they became so successful that they're now millionaire executives Yes that's what I'm saying. The statement of two men who stood at the top of the ladder about the man who put them there immediately after that man has died is absolutely not credible in regards to judging how that man treated regular workers. At all.
    - mshake2 4y ago
      So far I haven't seen a counter experience from you about how Jobs treated the "regular workers" at Pixar, so as I see it, it's a quote from people who were close to what happened versus the absence of a counter experience.
      - austinjp 4y ago
        Oh please. Googling "steve jobs bully pixar" reveals at least one story of horrible behavior directed toward regular staff members. Jobs could be a bully, it's well documented. Pixar wasn't somehow immune to this behavior. You've painted a utilitarian, partisan viewpoint: that the cultural and technological significance of Pixar outweighs any negative experiences of staff. The two are not easily comparable. How do you quantify them, what's the denominator? Jobs didn't have a crystal ball, he couldn't know Pixar would succeed. What was his calculus? How did he determine the trade-offs between success and bullying? Finally, cultural/tech significance is most certainly possible without putting staff through negative experiences.
DoctorOW 4y ago
The problem is abusing employees isn't a mean. It seemingly made it more difficult to reach that end.

endorphine 4y ago

I don't understand how this dichotomy can be useful to you. Even for "ends vs means" the answer isn't always white-or-black. I see what you're saying, I just don't understand how it promotes a healthy discussion here.

ben_w 4y ago

You're suggesting an unreal scenario, so the thought experiment isn't going to do much good, IMO. Each employee gets to make that call themselves, "do I want to be treated badly?" Fresh graduates may not realise they are being treated badly, lacking a frame of reference. Immigrants may be on a visa where they have no choice but to put up with it or leave the country. Locals who've been around a bit, who know their discipline, the proven (local) best of the best? They don't stay on teams led by bullies.

mshake2 4y ago
It's not an unreal scenario at all. It's entirely plausible that a company falls apart when lacking the specific motivators and pressures that Jobs brought, and therefore never really exists in the first place. What's unreal about that?
- ben_w 4y ago
  The unreal part is there being only two options. Most dichotomies are false.
  - mshake2 4y ago
    I addressed why the hypothetical is limited to two options, and taking a subset of plausible scenarios does not reduce the plausibility of the selected scenarios.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      P(a) = 0.1, P(b) = 0.1, P(c) = 0.8, "Oh, let's only look at cases a and b".
      - mshake2 4y ago
        Yes, because a and b represent a specific combination I said I was interested in exploring. What you've shown doesn't lower the plausibility of those scenarios. Are you being intentionally contrarian or is there a reason why you are trying to muddy a simple thought experiment?
        ben_w 4y ago
        That makes it unreal. It changed the environment too much to exclude it. Ignoring it breaks stuff. I'm not saying thought experiments are bad — do them often myself — I'm saying my response to get thought experiment itself is: it can't work like that (riffing of an unrelated but recent comment from yesterday where I'm the one doing the thought experiment as an existence proof, it's a "spherical cow in a vacuum" model).
        mshake2 4y ago
        It's not a nonsensical "spherical cow in vacuum" thought experiment to say "Pixar exists but some employees are treated bad" vs "Pixar doesn't exist". If you think that it becomes impossible for a rational mind to weigh those two choices, then there's no point in me continuing this discussion with you.
        ben_w 4y ago
spoonjim 4y ago
Are you claiming that only new grads and immigrants fearful of deportation worked at Pixar?
- ben_w 4y ago
  Depends on how much of Jobs' current reputation is accurate vs. mythologising.
  - spoonjim 4y ago
    Jobs was a well-known sociopath but also people of the highest talent level fought to work for him because he was a great executive

citizen-stig 4y ago

It is easy to choose for others, isn’t it?

mshake2 4y ago
"Steve took a chance on us and believed in our crazy dream of making computer-animated films; the one thing he always said was to simply 'make it great.' He is why Pixar turned out the way we did and his strength, integrity, and love of life has made us all better people. He will forever be a part of Pixar's DNA."
- causi 4y ago
  You're quoting the top two Pixar executives, and from immediately after Jobs' death as well. How about someone who isn't a millionaire? aren't credible because they became so successful that they're now millionaire executives Yes that's what I'm saying. The statement of two men who stood at the top of the ladder about the man who put them there immediately after that man has died is absolutely not credible in regards to judging how that man treated regular workers. At all.
  - mshake2 4y ago
    So far I haven't seen a counter experience from you about how Jobs treated the "regular workers" at Pixar, so as I see it, it's a quote from people who were close to what happened versus the absence of a counter experience.
    - austinjp 4y ago
      Oh please. Googling "steve jobs bully pixar" reveals at least one story of horrible behavior directed toward regular staff members. Jobs could be a bully, it's well documented. Pixar wasn't somehow immune to this behavior. You've painted a utilitarian, partisan viewpoint: that the cultural and technological significance of Pixar outweighs any negative experiences of staff. The two are not easily comparable. How do you quantify them, what's the denominator? Jobs didn't have a crystal ball, he couldn't know Pixar would succeed. What was his calculus? How did he determine the trade-offs between success and bullying? Finally, cultural/tech significance is most certainly possible without putting staff through negative experiences.

DoctorOW 4y ago

The problem is abusing employees isn't a mean. It seemingly made it more difficult to reach that end.