4 ms·

I was unlawfully demoted once at a job and that was the defense my employer used as well: 1) what we are paying you now is still great money 2) by keeping com

I was unlawfully demoted once at a job and that was the defense my employer used as well: 1) what we are paying you now is still great money 2) by keeping coming to work you agree to being OK with the demotion (same as in the article) Too bad it didn’t hold up once lawyers got involved. Some corporations really believe they can get away with anything. To their detriment, labor laws exist.

tptacek 4y ago
What was unlawful about your demotion? Most US employees can be demoted for no reason, or have their salaries docked arbitrarily.
- puffoflogic 4y ago
  GP commenter would appear to be using "unlawful" to mean "a scheme [to avoid paying out unemployment benefits, which absolutely does attach in the circumstances you mention] which did not actually succeed under the law".
- thrwawy74 4y ago
  I am not a lawyer. I'm imagining some legal argument where you claim you've become accustomed to the lifestyle and cost of living of a certain salary, and by reducing your pay you're being put in an unreasonable position (or certainly one you can't adjust to instantly without financial cost). It would be similar to 1 spouse divorcing another and suing for (alimony?). Constructive termination + a reasonable payout to help you adjust to life post-job/divorce.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Constructive termination + a reasonable payout to help you adjust to life post-job/divorce. Constructive termination doesn’t get you money on its own, it just is a way to make a claim for things you would have been owed if you were fired (including wrongful termination damages, if you can also prove that the termination was wrongful) when the employer tried to characterize the termination as voluntary on your part.
- sli 4y ago
  Violation of contract terms on the employer's side is one way. Breach of contract is unlawful, but not criminal (mostly, so far as I know). Or, of course, they simply might not be in the US and live in a country that has strong labor laws with real teeth. We mostly just wrist-slap in the US.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Like the GP, I'm using the word "unlawful" to mean roughly "you'd lose a lawsuit over it", vs. "illegal", which implies "criminal".
    - sli 4y ago
      Sure, but people reading these comments can't see inside your head, so being specific is worth the extra small effort, in my opinion. The primary content of my reply was the part about employment contracts.
- quadrifoliate 4y ago
  > What was unlawful about your demotion? Most US employees... The commenter is probably employed in a jurisdiction that is not the US. A quick examination of their post history yields a description [1] of employment in a jurisdiction that is not the US. ---------------------------------------- [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34099858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34099858
- justusw 4y ago
  Yes, I should have mentioned I have only worked in Japan and Germany so far. Labor law supersedes the contract freedom guaranteed by the civil code here in JP. And the conditions for demotion are strict here, e.g. maximum ~40 % reduction of salary, new role must be related to previous role, etc. The burden of evidence lies with the employer, but some try to construct a fictitious narrative. Nothing that holds up in a court of law if you remember to CYA. It’s especially frustrating if your visa is tied to doing a certain type of job and having a certain amount of salary! The word unlawful I am using here is 不法 (fuhō) in Japanese which I believe is used a lot in tort law. Either way, long story short, there is no at-will employment in Japan.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Sure. This is an article about US employment law. In US employment law, absent a contract, employers can (with very few restrictions) be fired at will, which means their salaries, duties, and working conditions are subject to change.
    - mannerheim 4y ago
      Even in America, a demotion can be unlawful if e.g. done in retaliation for whistleblowing, or if it's done on the basis of membership in a protected group.
  - nigamanth 4y ago
    I feel like this is why people should be aware of the laws in their area no matter what profession they're in.

tptacek 4y ago

What was unlawful about your demotion? Most US employees can be demoted for no reason, or have their salaries docked arbitrarily.

puffoflogic 4y ago
GP commenter would appear to be using "unlawful" to mean "a scheme [to avoid paying out unemployment benefits, which absolutely does attach in the circumstances you mention] which did not actually succeed under the law".
thrwawy74 4y ago
I am not a lawyer. I'm imagining some legal argument where you claim you've become accustomed to the lifestyle and cost of living of a certain salary, and by reducing your pay you're being put in an unreasonable position (or certainly one you can't adjust to instantly without financial cost). It would be similar to 1 spouse divorcing another and suing for (alimony?). Constructive termination + a reasonable payout to help you adjust to life post-job/divorce.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Constructive termination + a reasonable payout to help you adjust to life post-job/divorce. Constructive termination doesn’t get you money on its own, it just is a way to make a claim for things you would have been owed if you were fired (including wrongful termination damages, if you can also prove that the termination was wrongful) when the employer tried to characterize the termination as voluntary on your part.
sli 4y ago
Violation of contract terms on the employer's side is one way. Breach of contract is unlawful, but not criminal (mostly, so far as I know). Or, of course, they simply might not be in the US and live in a country that has strong labor laws with real teeth. We mostly just wrist-slap in the US.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Like the GP, I'm using the word "unlawful" to mean roughly "you'd lose a lawsuit over it", vs. "illegal", which implies "criminal".
  - sli 4y ago
    Sure, but people reading these comments can't see inside your head, so being specific is worth the extra small effort, in my opinion. The primary content of my reply was the part about employment contracts.
quadrifoliate 4y ago
> What was unlawful about your demotion? Most US employees... The commenter is probably employed in a jurisdiction that is not the US. A quick examination of their post history yields a description [1] of employment in a jurisdiction that is not the US. ---------------------------------------- [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34099858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34099858
justusw 4y ago
Yes, I should have mentioned I have only worked in Japan and Germany so far. Labor law supersedes the contract freedom guaranteed by the civil code here in JP. And the conditions for demotion are strict here, e.g. maximum ~40 % reduction of salary, new role must be related to previous role, etc. The burden of evidence lies with the employer, but some try to construct a fictitious narrative. Nothing that holds up in a court of law if you remember to CYA. It’s especially frustrating if your visa is tied to doing a certain type of job and having a certain amount of salary! The word unlawful I am using here is 不法 (fuhō) in Japanese which I believe is used a lot in tort law. Either way, long story short, there is no at-will employment in Japan.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Sure. This is an article about US employment law. In US employment law, absent a contract, employers can (with very few restrictions) be fired at will, which means their salaries, duties, and working conditions are subject to change.
  - mannerheim 4y ago
    Even in America, a demotion can be unlawful if e.g. done in retaliation for whistleblowing, or if it's done on the basis of membership in a protected group.
- nigamanth 4y ago
  I feel like this is why people should be aware of the laws in their area no matter what profession they're in.