6 ms·

> There seems to be a general lack of political will for big projects in the west. We don't need big projects. If popular US cities like Seattle and San Franc

by QIYGT 4y ago

> There seems to be a general lack of political will for big projects in the west. We don't need big projects. If popular US cities like Seattle and San Francisco simply allowed people to build 5-story apartment buildings in all the space that's currently set aside for single-family detached homes, you'd see people building millions of small projects to easily meet the demand.

bboygravity 4y ago
And also the city would turn into a horrible place to live with tons of pollution and congestion. Similar to large Asian cities where you can barely breathe, the noise is unbearable and it's a mission to get from one part of the city to another. Nevermind issues like "can our sewage pipes handle it?".
- wkat4242 4y ago
  On the contrary. Those densities would make for excellent public transport opportunities so not everyone would need a car. I live in Barcelona that's mostly 5 or so levels and I haven't driven a car in 4 years and I love it.
- Terretta 4y ago
  Like the entirely 5 story multi-family residential-over-retail filled Paris, France? In the US, these manifest as so-called 5-over-1 and it's entirely possible to build the same model of work-life balanced neighborhoods using that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1
  - mancerayder 4y ago
    Paris is definitely not a place where you can point to an example of abundant, affordable housing. Are you kidding me? Adjusted for wages, Paris purchase prices are more unaffordable than London or New York.
    - throwaway_paris 4y ago
      I moved to Paris to start a new job recently, and the housing situation sucks so much. The prices in Paris are fairly high, 1000€ for a 30m² flat. But that's the relatively small heart of "Paris intra muros", excluding the "banlieues" (suburbs) which are cheaper and 30 minutes to an hour with the Métro (or the RER). That doesn't sound more unaffordable than London, not on a tech salary and colleagues have told me co-habitation is not a thing here (whereas most of my friends and colleagues in London lived in shared flats, for example). What makes Paris impossible to rent in, is the absolutely insane demand for housing that frees real estate agents to do whatever the fuck they please. I spent three weeks calling every day, multiple agencies, only to be told by each and every one of them that they wouldn't let to me because I am a salaried worker in a trial period ("salarié en periode d' essaie", a three-month trial period mandated by French law). Even with my company offering to be my guarantor (which means they would shoulder all the risk of rent arrears) they would not let to me. Not one. My contacts list is still full of numbers of "immobiliers" (real estate agencies), I know 80% of the agencies and I have masochistic fun pointing them out when I pass outside them with friends. Not one of them would let to me. Not. One! That's without all the absolutely insane amount of documentation they require (three months of recent rent receipts, proof of having paid taxes in France in the last year, etc) which you won't have if you haven't already lived and worked in France for a while, and the complete bollocks demand of earning three times the rent in salary, and being able to afford two times the rent in advance (as a guarantee; we'll see if I get mine back). But I think that's all par for the course in big cities. In the end I was only able to find an apartment because an estate agent who's friends with my boss did me a favor. And even he wouldn't talk to me until I barged into his office. So I got 15 m² with a 3m² bathroom with no sink (there's a 5lt washing machine in its place) and a "kitchen corner" that's barely enough to make breakfast cereals, all for the price of 720€. For the record, I'm an EU citizen and I have a doctorate in a tech subject. My French colleagues have shared similar rental horror stories. I have no idea how people manage who are worse off financially, or come from outside the EU. tl;dr: no, you don't want the housing situation in your city to be like that in Paris.
      - aliqot 4y ago
        > For the record, I'm an EU citizen and I have a doctorate in a tech subject. My French colleagues have shared similar rental horror stories. I have no idea how people manage who are worse off financially, or come from outside the EU. Having read all of this, I have no doubt that the experience you're relating is true, nonetheless, it makes me wonder how Paris's immigration boom is happening. When I was last there, most of the people I spoke to didn't have Parisian accents, and were mostly recent immigrants. There is no way all of these people outrank someone with a doctorate in a tech field, statistically speaking. I'm curious what other factors are at play here.
  - rowanG077 4y ago
    Yes exactly. Paris is honestly one of the greatest shitholes in the EU.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      > Paris is honestly one of the greatest shitholes in the EU. Berlin would like to step up as a challenger for that title.
      - rowanG077 4y ago
        True Berlin is pretty high up there as well.
      - distances 4y ago
        To each their own, Berlin is probably my favourite European city!
        ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        I like it too but only to visit and party every now and then, since, due to the massive liberal and expat/immigrant population there, it's the only place in Germany where I feel comfortable and at home, and not in a conservative conformist dystopian nightmare, despite me being fluent in German. But with the general poor state of the city despite the high income taxes, and that terrible housing market over there I can't ever see myself moving there to live permanently today. In hindsight maybe 4-5 years ago, when housing was still easier to find, would have been the better time for that but not in the current housing market. If you lucked out and got a nice flat before housing went to hell, good for you. But then good luck next time you need to move again. Unless all you care about is tech start-ups and wild parties with drugs and cheap food and beer, the housing market there and general poor state makes it a bad place to live if you're used to high quality of life cities that are well kept, like Vienna for example. I'd like to live in a place where finding housing that isn't overpriced and poorly maintained, isn't a full time job in of itself where you waste dozens of hours calling agents and fighting with hundreds of people hunger games style just for the opportunity of living in an overpriced shitty uninsulated flat that hasn't seen any renovations or modernization since the early '80s (if you're lucky). Maybe I'm getting old, but since I'm not a student anymore, the party scene doesn't make up for that huge hassle.
  - dismantlethesun 4y ago
    Out of curiosity, does San Fran have similar public transportation to Paris? If it doesn’t it’ll quickly get overwhelmed by people trying to get around in cars.
- lwansbrough 4y ago
  Gosh, how do you reckon bigger cities manage it? Oh right, they just do. And you aren’t the last one in the door, so stop gatekeeping new entrants before you’re forced to stop.
- Fatnino 4y ago
  Just like new york
robocat 4y ago
> you'd see people building millions of small projects to easily meet the demand On that theory, New York should have insanely cheap apartments due to lack of demand.
- djg321 4y ago
  The difference is that the Bay Area apartments would be new initially vacant apartments that could compete with existing apartments. New York already has had high density for a century+, but has not been adding apartments at a rate that would match population growth (and income growth) for decades. In the Bay example, presumably if the new apartments were a one off, prices would initially come down, but would then start to rise again as more people move in and add to demand. The solution would be to continuously add sufficient new apartments to match population growth (which could be done by liberally allowing builders to build more density to meet demand).
- pas 4y ago
  That's misrepresentation of the theory. Which is roughly "new units decrease price if there's excess demand". Which is the classic microeconomics theory of how the price point shifts due as the increased supply sets a new equilibrium. some pretty graphs: https://mobile.twitter.com/georgiststeve/status/1598135264270245888 https://mobile.twitter.com/georgiststeve/status/159813526427...

by QIYGT 4y ago

bboygravity 4y ago

And also the city would turn into a horrible place to live with tons of pollution and congestion. Similar to large Asian cities where you can barely breathe, the noise is unbearable and it's a mission to get from one part of the city to another. Nevermind issues like "can our sewage pipes handle it?".

wkat4242 4y ago
On the contrary. Those densities would make for excellent public transport opportunities so not everyone would need a car. I live in Barcelona that's mostly 5 or so levels and I haven't driven a car in 4 years and I love it.
Terretta 4y ago
Like the entirely 5 story multi-family residential-over-retail filled Paris, France? In the US, these manifest as so-called 5-over-1 and it's entirely possible to build the same model of work-life balanced neighborhoods using that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1
- mancerayder 4y ago
  Paris is definitely not a place where you can point to an example of abundant, affordable housing. Are you kidding me? Adjusted for wages, Paris purchase prices are more unaffordable than London or New York.
  - throwaway_paris 4y ago
    I moved to Paris to start a new job recently, and the housing situation sucks so much. The prices in Paris are fairly high, 1000€ for a 30m² flat. But that's the relatively small heart of "Paris intra muros", excluding the "banlieues" (suburbs) which are cheaper and 30 minutes to an hour with the Métro (or the RER). That doesn't sound more unaffordable than London, not on a tech salary and colleagues have told me co-habitation is not a thing here (whereas most of my friends and colleagues in London lived in shared flats, for example). What makes Paris impossible to rent in, is the absolutely insane demand for housing that frees real estate agents to do whatever the fuck they please. I spent three weeks calling every day, multiple agencies, only to be told by each and every one of them that they wouldn't let to me because I am a salaried worker in a trial period ("salarié en periode d' essaie", a three-month trial period mandated by French law). Even with my company offering to be my guarantor (which means they would shoulder all the risk of rent arrears) they would not let to me. Not one. My contacts list is still full of numbers of "immobiliers" (real estate agencies), I know 80% of the agencies and I have masochistic fun pointing them out when I pass outside them with friends. Not one of them would let to me. Not. One! That's without all the absolutely insane amount of documentation they require (three months of recent rent receipts, proof of having paid taxes in France in the last year, etc) which you won't have if you haven't already lived and worked in France for a while, and the complete bollocks demand of earning three times the rent in salary, and being able to afford two times the rent in advance (as a guarantee; we'll see if I get mine back). But I think that's all par for the course in big cities. In the end I was only able to find an apartment because an estate agent who's friends with my boss did me a favor. And even he wouldn't talk to me until I barged into his office. So I got 15 m² with a 3m² bathroom with no sink (there's a 5lt washing machine in its place) and a "kitchen corner" that's barely enough to make breakfast cereals, all for the price of 720€. For the record, I'm an EU citizen and I have a doctorate in a tech subject. My French colleagues have shared similar rental horror stories. I have no idea how people manage who are worse off financially, or come from outside the EU. tl;dr: no, you don't want the housing situation in your city to be like that in Paris.
    - aliqot 4y ago
      > For the record, I'm an EU citizen and I have a doctorate in a tech subject. My French colleagues have shared similar rental horror stories. I have no idea how people manage who are worse off financially, or come from outside the EU. Having read all of this, I have no doubt that the experience you're relating is true, nonetheless, it makes me wonder how Paris's immigration boom is happening. When I was last there, most of the people I spoke to didn't have Parisian accents, and were mostly recent immigrants. There is no way all of these people outrank someone with a doctorate in a tech field, statistically speaking. I'm curious what other factors are at play here.
- rowanG077 4y ago
  Yes exactly. Paris is honestly one of the greatest shitholes in the EU.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    > Paris is honestly one of the greatest shitholes in the EU. Berlin would like to step up as a challenger for that title.
    - rowanG077 4y ago
      True Berlin is pretty high up there as well.
    - distances 4y ago
      To each their own, Berlin is probably my favourite European city!
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        I like it too but only to visit and party every now and then, since, due to the massive liberal and expat/immigrant population there, it's the only place in Germany where I feel comfortable and at home, and not in a conservative conformist dystopian nightmare, despite me being fluent in German. But with the general poor state of the city despite the high income taxes, and that terrible housing market over there I can't ever see myself moving there to live permanently today. In hindsight maybe 4-5 years ago, when housing was still easier to find, would have been the better time for that but not in the current housing market. If you lucked out and got a nice flat before housing went to hell, good for you. But then good luck next time you need to move again. Unless all you care about is tech start-ups and wild parties with drugs and cheap food and beer, the housing market there and general poor state makes it a bad place to live if you're used to high quality of life cities that are well kept, like Vienna for example. I'd like to live in a place where finding housing that isn't overpriced and poorly maintained, isn't a full time job in of itself where you waste dozens of hours calling agents and fighting with hundreds of people hunger games style just for the opportunity of living in an overpriced shitty uninsulated flat that hasn't seen any renovations or modernization since the early '80s (if you're lucky). Maybe I'm getting old, but since I'm not a student anymore, the party scene doesn't make up for that huge hassle.
- dismantlethesun 4y ago
  Out of curiosity, does San Fran have similar public transportation to Paris? If it doesn’t it’ll quickly get overwhelmed by people trying to get around in cars.
lwansbrough 4y ago
Gosh, how do you reckon bigger cities manage it? Oh right, they just do. And you aren’t the last one in the door, so stop gatekeeping new entrants before you’re forced to stop.
Fatnino 4y ago
Just like new york

robocat 4y ago

> you'd see people building millions of small projects to easily meet the demand On that theory, New York should have insanely cheap apartments due to lack of demand.

djg321 4y ago
The difference is that the Bay Area apartments would be new initially vacant apartments that could compete with existing apartments. New York already has had high density for a century+, but has not been adding apartments at a rate that would match population growth (and income growth) for decades. In the Bay example, presumably if the new apartments were a one off, prices would initially come down, but would then start to rise again as more people move in and add to demand. The solution would be to continuously add sufficient new apartments to match population growth (which could be done by liberally allowing builders to build more density to meet demand).
pas 4y ago
That's misrepresentation of the theory. Which is roughly "new units decrease price if there's excess demand". Which is the classic microeconomics theory of how the price point shifts due as the increased supply sets a new equilibrium. some pretty graphs: https://mobile.twitter.com/georgiststeve/status/1598135264270245888 https://mobile.twitter.com/georgiststeve/status/159813526427...