4 ms·

My points may reveal something about my politics, but they absolutely are not just belief or ideology. I already pointed you to a rigorous academic paper to ba

by gmac 4y ago

My points may reveal something about my politics, but they absolutely are not just belief or ideology. I already pointed you to a rigorous academic paper to back up one of them. I don’t have the same to hand for the others, but something like this is a good start: https://theconversation.com/why-britains-private-schools-are-such-a-social-problem-111369 https://theconversation.com/why-britains-private-schools-are... I don’t see that your anecdote has much bearing on the argument. I certainly agree that all state schools should be excellent and some of them surely have room to improve.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
The previous article you mentioned was about Delhi, this one is a political piece. And none of these disproves my points. Banning private schools isn't going to improve state schools in the same way that purging the bourgeoisie did not help the proletariat.
- Moissanite 4y ago
  If the current crop at Eton had to go to the same manner of school every day as their nearest council estate residents, do you really not think Tory donors would push harder for schools to improve? Of course all of their actual learning would be catered for via private tutors, but I would think it would (after a generation or two) significantly reduce the "us Vs them" mentality.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Well, that might be true except for catchment areas. The best state schools are already in good areas. This would make those state schools even better without any effect on the others. The bottom line is again how much parents value education and the culture of effort and ambition at school. Improving state schools is orthogonal with the existence of private schools or their charity status, and different 'classes' will always exist, they even still did in the USSR.
    - Moissanite 4y ago
      Following your point through to a conclusion, the only way to improve educational outcomes would be for everyone to just become better people, and for the country to actually start respecting academic achievement instead of sneering at it. Which would be great - but is not very actionable. Some parents just don't have the capacity to lift up their children, and it is not the child's fault they were born to less-than-ideal patents. So, our aspiration should always be to give those children the best shot. Is this as economically advantageous as filtering kids early, with the help of parental spending as a proxy for "caring that the child succeeds"? Probably not, but the latter model feels pretty dystopian to me.
      - mytailorisrich 4y ago
        > So, our aspiration should always be to give those children the best shot Yes, but you do that by actually helping them, not by hitting those who do well or already have the environment to support them. You actually help them by changing schools' culture, and investing so as to cut class sizes and to extend school hours.
        Moissanite 4y ago
        If people could be trusted to be perfectly fair and honest, then I would agree. In reality, having met plenty of privately-educated individuals, I am confident their outcomes are achievable without private schooling; none of them were great minds who had been unlocked by access to better teaching. What they did have - in abundance - was an unreasonable and unfair advantage when it comes to networking with rich people. The problem with private education has nothing to do with the difference in teaching quality and everything to do with social mobility and nepotism.
- gmac 4y ago
  Do you think any of my 4 bullet points is wrong? For example, do you disagree that the availability of private schooling reduces social mobility and equality of opportunity? Or do you think they are right, but that it’s not a problem that they are? For example, that social mobility and equality of opportunity are not desirable goals? Your dismissal of the article as ‘political’ makes me wonder how far our disagreement is positive and how far it’s normative.

by gmac 4y ago

mytailorisrich 4y ago

The previous article you mentioned was about Delhi, this one is a political piece. And none of these disproves my points. Banning private schools isn't going to improve state schools in the same way that purging the bourgeoisie did not help the proletariat.

Moissanite 4y ago
If the current crop at Eton had to go to the same manner of school every day as their nearest council estate residents, do you really not think Tory donors would push harder for schools to improve? Of course all of their actual learning would be catered for via private tutors, but I would think it would (after a generation or two) significantly reduce the "us Vs them" mentality.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  Well, that might be true except for catchment areas. The best state schools are already in good areas. This would make those state schools even better without any effect on the others. The bottom line is again how much parents value education and the culture of effort and ambition at school. Improving state schools is orthogonal with the existence of private schools or their charity status, and different 'classes' will always exist, they even still did in the USSR.
  - Moissanite 4y ago
    Following your point through to a conclusion, the only way to improve educational outcomes would be for everyone to just become better people, and for the country to actually start respecting academic achievement instead of sneering at it. Which would be great - but is not very actionable. Some parents just don't have the capacity to lift up their children, and it is not the child's fault they were born to less-than-ideal patents. So, our aspiration should always be to give those children the best shot. Is this as economically advantageous as filtering kids early, with the help of parental spending as a proxy for "caring that the child succeeds"? Probably not, but the latter model feels pretty dystopian to me.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      > So, our aspiration should always be to give those children the best shot Yes, but you do that by actually helping them, not by hitting those who do well or already have the environment to support them. You actually help them by changing schools' culture, and investing so as to cut class sizes and to extend school hours.
      - Moissanite 4y ago
        If people could be trusted to be perfectly fair and honest, then I would agree. In reality, having met plenty of privately-educated individuals, I am confident their outcomes are achievable without private schooling; none of them were great minds who had been unlocked by access to better teaching. What they did have - in abundance - was an unreasonable and unfair advantage when it comes to networking with rich people. The problem with private education has nothing to do with the difference in teaching quality and everything to do with social mobility and nepotism.
gmac 4y ago
Do you think any of my 4 bullet points is wrong? For example, do you disagree that the availability of private schooling reduces social mobility and equality of opportunity? Or do you think they are right, but that it’s not a problem that they are? For example, that social mobility and equality of opportunity are not desirable goals? Your dismissal of the article as ‘political’ makes me wonder how far our disagreement is positive and how far it’s normative.