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None of your bullet points are factual and pragmatic, they are all based on belief and ideology. A counter, more positive take, is that if state schools actual

None of your bullet points are factual and pragmatic, they are all based on belief and ideology. A counter, more positive take, is that if state schools actually pushed all pupils then the middle class wouldn't be looking for alternatives. The existence of private schools is not what creates the issues the state system suffers from, which is potentially lack of funding (but as per my previous comment, private schools actually help on that front) and but also too often a culture that does not promote effort and ambition (which is what those who choose private schools are after). Education is first and foremost down to the parents and values learnt at home. The greatest filter is there and those who prioritise education will make their children succeed. An anecdote: When my daughter was in (state) primary school she did not do that well in maths and was put in the lower set group. When we asked the school what they did in the lower set in order to push pupils up they effectively replied "nothing, we just sort pupils according to ability, some children are not very good at maths". So here you have it, they give up on 8 year old pupils. So we did what other parents do: additional private tuition (which the majority of families can actually afford) and ultimately the school self-congratulated themselves for moving our daughter to the top set because she improved so much. Obviously, we looked for alternatives for secondary school. It's not a question of being 'rich', it's a question of priorities.

gmac 4y ago
My points may reveal something about my politics, but they absolutely are not just belief or ideology. I already pointed you to a rigorous academic paper to back up one of them. I don’t have the same to hand for the others, but something like this is a good start: https://theconversation.com/why-britains-private-schools-are-such-a-social-problem-111369 https://theconversation.com/why-britains-private-schools-are... I don’t see that your anecdote has much bearing on the argument. I certainly agree that all state schools should be excellent and some of them surely have room to improve.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  The previous article you mentioned was about Delhi, this one is a political piece. And none of these disproves my points. Banning private schools isn't going to improve state schools in the same way that purging the bourgeoisie did not help the proletariat.
  - Moissanite 4y ago
    If the current crop at Eton had to go to the same manner of school every day as their nearest council estate residents, do you really not think Tory donors would push harder for schools to improve? Of course all of their actual learning would be catered for via private tutors, but I would think it would (after a generation or two) significantly reduce the "us Vs them" mentality.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      Well, that might be true except for catchment areas. The best state schools are already in good areas. This would make those state schools even better without any effect on the others. The bottom line is again how much parents value education and the culture of effort and ambition at school. Improving state schools is orthogonal with the existence of private schools or their charity status, and different 'classes' will always exist, they even still did in the USSR.
      - Moissanite 4y ago
        Following your point through to a conclusion, the only way to improve educational outcomes would be for everyone to just become better people, and for the country to actually start respecting academic achievement instead of sneering at it. Which would be great - but is not very actionable. Some parents just don't have the capacity to lift up their children, and it is not the child's fault they were born to less-than-ideal patents. So, our aspiration should always be to give those children the best shot. Is this as economically advantageous as filtering kids early, with the help of parental spending as a proxy for "caring that the child succeeds"? Probably not, but the latter model feels pretty dystopian to me.
        mytailorisrich 4y ago
        > So, our aspiration should always be to give those children the best shot Yes, but you do that by actually helping them, not by hitting those who do well or already have the environment to support them. You actually help them by changing schools' culture, and investing so as to cut class sizes and to extend school hours.
Moissanite 4y ago
Your comment strikes me as one of the most "technically correct" I've seen in that I can't disagree with any of your statements and would take exactly the same approach with my children - but I can't help but still agree with the parent comment with regard to private schools having a large negative effect on our society. If I try to start from a clean slate without all of the institutional baggage our country has, I can't come up with a framing for education which doesn't make private schools a gross symbol of self-perpetuating inequality. When you add all of the cruft of the British class system into the mix, the picture doesn't improve.

gmac 4y ago

My points may reveal something about my politics, but they absolutely are not just belief or ideology. I already pointed you to a rigorous academic paper to back up one of them. I don’t have the same to hand for the others, but something like this is a good start: https://theconversation.com/why-britains-private-schools-are-such-a-social-problem-111369 https://theconversation.com/why-britains-private-schools-are... I don’t see that your anecdote has much bearing on the argument. I certainly agree that all state schools should be excellent and some of them surely have room to improve.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
The previous article you mentioned was about Delhi, this one is a political piece. And none of these disproves my points. Banning private schools isn't going to improve state schools in the same way that purging the bourgeoisie did not help the proletariat.
- Moissanite 4y ago
  If the current crop at Eton had to go to the same manner of school every day as their nearest council estate residents, do you really not think Tory donors would push harder for schools to improve? Of course all of their actual learning would be catered for via private tutors, but I would think it would (after a generation or two) significantly reduce the "us Vs them" mentality.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Well, that might be true except for catchment areas. The best state schools are already in good areas. This would make those state schools even better without any effect on the others. The bottom line is again how much parents value education and the culture of effort and ambition at school. Improving state schools is orthogonal with the existence of private schools or their charity status, and different 'classes' will always exist, they even still did in the USSR.
    - Moissanite 4y ago
      Following your point through to a conclusion, the only way to improve educational outcomes would be for everyone to just become better people, and for the country to actually start respecting academic achievement instead of sneering at it. Which would be great - but is not very actionable. Some parents just don't have the capacity to lift up their children, and it is not the child's fault they were born to less-than-ideal patents. So, our aspiration should always be to give those children the best shot. Is this as economically advantageous as filtering kids early, with the help of parental spending as a proxy for "caring that the child succeeds"? Probably not, but the latter model feels pretty dystopian to me.
      - mytailorisrich 4y ago
        > So, our aspiration should always be to give those children the best shot Yes, but you do that by actually helping them, not by hitting those who do well or already have the environment to support them. You actually help them by changing schools' culture, and investing so as to cut class sizes and to extend school hours.

Moissanite 4y ago

Your comment strikes me as one of the most "technically correct" I've seen in that I can't disagree with any of your statements and would take exactly the same approach with my children - but I can't help but still agree with the parent comment with regard to private schools having a large negative effect on our society. If I try to start from a clean slate without all of the institutional baggage our country has, I can't come up with a framing for education which doesn't make private schools a gross symbol of self-perpetuating inequality. When you add all of the cruft of the British class system into the mix, the picture doesn't improve.