4 ms·

I'm not saying we should ignore wage theft. I am saying it is a scenario where a police force cannot really do much. You can call your local PD and report shop

by brk 4y ago

I'm not saying we should ignore wage theft. I am saying it is a scenario where a police force cannot really do much. You can call your local PD and report shoplifting, or most other kinds of physical theft. It would be a pretty clear accusation, and these days odds are you'd be able to produce some simple evidence in the form of video footage (CCTV, cellphone, etc.). But how do you report wage theft in a way that the average police force can act on? Are you going to call and say "I'm being forced to work unpaid hours"? If you did I can almost guarantee you they would refer you to some other department or organization. I would not envision the police showing up to arrest your employer, take them in for questioning, etc. Wage theft is also slightly more complex in that the victims are often complicit in the sense that they continue to work for the employer. To be clear, I am not saying this makes it right, but it makes it hard for the police to do much from an enforcement perspective. You're saying your employer is underpaying you, but you're also continuing to work for them. The employer would tell the police that showed up that you were free to leave, or were agreeing to the term by virtue of showing up. It would take legal action, e.g. a lawyer not a cop, to actually create a claim that was actionable and enforceable by the law enforcement organization.

mikem170 4y ago
> But how do you report wage theft in a way that the average police force can act on? I follow what you are saying, and admit there's not an obvious easy answer. I'd also say that private security guards who roam the public streets (sometimes harassing law abiding people) are not the best answer to shoplifting. Hmmm, thinking about this it doesn't seem right to leave wage theft as a civil matter - a lot of victims don't have the resources to engage a lawyer. Maybe we could do things so the deck is not so much stacked against them. More of a paper trail, like an employment contract specifying hours and wages and a paper trail of time sheets. Also making it much easier to report, and treating it as a criminal matter. We could if we wanted to, nothing is set in stone. Maybe also more investigators. Perhaps victims could submit audio and/or video evidence to government authorities. Why should law-abiding employers object to being taped, when they are happy to tape the public to catch shoplifters? It would be nice to figure out how to prevent the exploitation of vulnerable people. It's a lot of money to them. I kind of threw my comment out there because I know that it burns when someone is victimized by theft, whether by a shoplifter or an employer, but there seems to be a lot more people are quick to be offended by shoplifters then when employers are doing the stealing. I didn't mean to mischaracterize your views on this.
novok 4y ago
I think in practice it would show up as an enforcement organization of the government labor department that would have a set of prosecutors on staff to enforce wage theft laws, much like how most cities have a DA and other government prosecutors to go through with criminal court cases. The work load of the PD would be minimal other than to maybe enforce jail transport orders after a court case finishes, it would mostly be about funding a lawyer group in the government.
FrontierPsych 4y ago
Wage theft is similar. It can be a clear accusation. There can be a form of video footage - I can take a screenshot of the amount that is being stolen from my bank account - I'm supposed to get $1000 but only paid $800. >Are you going to call and say "I'm being forced to work unpaid hours"? Sure. Makes 100% sense to me. You can look at your phone GPS, see how much time you spent in the job, then match that up against your pay stub. Exact same thing - you can show them both at the same time. >I would not envision the police showing up to arrest your employer, take them in for questioning, etc. That's the issue. They should. It would put an nationwide end to wage theft real fast if they brought in the CEO of Apple into jail for theft. >Wage theft is also slightly more complex in that the victims are often complicit in the sense that they continue to work for the employer. If you go into a hotel and stay there for a week, and only pay for 2 days, then you will be charged with theft, even though the hotel knew you were there. Randy Quaid is an example of this - arrested for a $10K hotel bill in Santa Barbara. It's "theft of services" and it is no joke. If he can be arrested, why not someone who skips out of paying you wages? Same exact situation. >you're also continuing to work for them. The one has nothing to do with the other. The crime is the crime. But then, by your logic, if one quits and doesn't continue to work, then the employer can be arrested? >The employer would tell the police that showed up that you were free to leave, or were agreeing to the term by virtue of showing up. This would be like saying that if I shoplifted at a store, then came in again and purchased something from the store later, that the store owner agreed to the terms of you taking stuff without paying before, because they just sold you some more stuff. That is not how it works. >It would take legal action, e.g. a lawyer not a cop, to actually create a claim that was actionable and enforceable by the law enforcement organization. Stealing is stealing. The fact that a lawyer has to get involved, does not mean a cop shouldn't arrest those accused of wage theft. But, it did give me some good ideas. I'm going to start a bunch of companies up, get people to work for me for two weeks, then never pay them and tell them to sue me. And since it is a corportation, they can sue the company but then I can just shut down the corporation. There won't be able to pierce the corporate veil, because I'm not treating it as an alter ego. Of course, I write this just to prove how ridiculous the claim is, when clearly I am stealing from employees, and gain all the benefits for myself.

by brk 4y ago

mikem170 4y ago

> But how do you report wage theft in a way that the average police force can act on? I follow what you are saying, and admit there's not an obvious easy answer. I'd also say that private security guards who roam the public streets (sometimes harassing law abiding people) are not the best answer to shoplifting. Hmmm, thinking about this it doesn't seem right to leave wage theft as a civil matter - a lot of victims don't have the resources to engage a lawyer. Maybe we could do things so the deck is not so much stacked against them. More of a paper trail, like an employment contract specifying hours and wages and a paper trail of time sheets. Also making it much easier to report, and treating it as a criminal matter. We could if we wanted to, nothing is set in stone. Maybe also more investigators. Perhaps victims could submit audio and/or video evidence to government authorities. Why should law-abiding employers object to being taped, when they are happy to tape the public to catch shoplifters? It would be nice to figure out how to prevent the exploitation of vulnerable people. It's a lot of money to them. I kind of threw my comment out there because I know that it burns when someone is victimized by theft, whether by a shoplifter or an employer, but there seems to be a lot more people are quick to be offended by shoplifters then when employers are doing the stealing. I didn't mean to mischaracterize your views on this.

novok 4y ago

I think in practice it would show up as an enforcement organization of the government labor department that would have a set of prosecutors on staff to enforce wage theft laws, much like how most cities have a DA and other government prosecutors to go through with criminal court cases. The work load of the PD would be minimal other than to maybe enforce jail transport orders after a court case finishes, it would mostly be about funding a lawyer group in the government.

FrontierPsych 4y ago

Wage theft is similar. It can be a clear accusation. There can be a form of video footage - I can take a screenshot of the amount that is being stolen from my bank account - I'm supposed to get $1000 but only paid $800. >Are you going to call and say "I'm being forced to work unpaid hours"? Sure. Makes 100% sense to me. You can look at your phone GPS, see how much time you spent in the job, then match that up against your pay stub. Exact same thing - you can show them both at the same time. >I would not envision the police showing up to arrest your employer, take them in for questioning, etc. That's the issue. They should. It would put an nationwide end to wage theft real fast if they brought in the CEO of Apple into jail for theft. >Wage theft is also slightly more complex in that the victims are often complicit in the sense that they continue to work for the employer. If you go into a hotel and stay there for a week, and only pay for 2 days, then you will be charged with theft, even though the hotel knew you were there. Randy Quaid is an example of this - arrested for a $10K hotel bill in Santa Barbara. It's "theft of services" and it is no joke. If he can be arrested, why not someone who skips out of paying you wages? Same exact situation. >you're also continuing to work for them. The one has nothing to do with the other. The crime is the crime. But then, by your logic, if one quits and doesn't continue to work, then the employer can be arrested? >The employer would tell the police that showed up that you were free to leave, or were agreeing to the term by virtue of showing up. This would be like saying that if I shoplifted at a store, then came in again and purchased something from the store later, that the store owner agreed to the terms of you taking stuff without paying before, because they just sold you some more stuff. That is not how it works. >It would take legal action, e.g. a lawyer not a cop, to actually create a claim that was actionable and enforceable by the law enforcement organization. Stealing is stealing. The fact that a lawyer has to get involved, does not mean a cop shouldn't arrest those accused of wage theft. But, it did give me some good ideas. I'm going to start a bunch of companies up, get people to work for me for two weeks, then never pay them and tell them to sue me. And since it is a corportation, they can sue the company but then I can just shut down the corporation. There won't be able to pierce the corporate veil, because I'm not treating it as an alter ego. Of course, I write this just to prove how ridiculous the claim is, when clearly I am stealing from employees, and gain all the benefits for myself.