7 ms·

Frankly I'll back AirBnB over an HOA any day. HOAs are a societal cancer.

medellin 4y ago
Sure let’s delegate decisions that are entirely neighborhood and building specific to a company that doesn’t even understand the local issues. Yeah HOAs can suck and aren’t needed in some cases but in my case the HOA is doing the correct thing and legal action has been taken against these places. It’s a shame airbnb won’t enforce local government policies because it will eventually blow up in their face only after people like me and my neighbors are harmed.
rdxm 4y ago
[dead]
ajhurliman 4y ago
I think there's a point to be made about single family dwellings, but it's hard to imagine how a 50 condo building would operate without one. Who takes care of the pool? Or fixes the elevator? The governance is definitely poorly structured, though. In my (limited) experience I've seen a board that gets elected and then proceeds to abuse their power to advance their own financial positions. I think there should be a 3rd party company that competes for the management contract and annual contracts are awarded based off democratic vote from all the owners.
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  My takeaway from dealing with a condo HOA is that condos shouldn't legally exist, because people owning fractional buildings is doomed to result in structural collapse. Elected residents aren't qualified to make decisions about long-term maintenance which becomes more severe and expensive over time, and they have perverse incentives to avoid spending money. Faced with a substantial enough cost, board members can opt to hide problems while they try to sell their own stake in the building. That's being said, $&@# AirBnB.
  - gaadd33 4y ago
    "People owning fractional buildings" has existed for almost 150 years, at what point should we start to see NYC buildings collapsing due to structural collapse?
    - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
      This is false. The first condominium in the continental US was built in 1960, the entire scheme is only 63 years old. There's some older buildings that have been converted, sure, but the legal concept isn't that old. And buildings start needing more significant structural work after forty or fifty years. Which is to say, yes, I expect many more condos to collapse over the next couple decades.
      - gaadd33 4y ago
        Given the extremely similar structure in operation (residents are elected to the board, control maintenance fees, etc) and that insurance companies consider them the same for insuring purposes, what makes condos significantly worse than co-ops (which have been around for ~150 years)?
      - techsupporter 4y ago
        > The first condominium in the continental US was built in 1960, the entire scheme is only 63 years old. This is correct in the sense that it is technically correct (for residential dwellings; commercial condominiums have existed for almost a hundred years prior). However, residential cooperatives (co-ops) have existed in the United States since the mid-1800s. These are functionally the same as a condominium with a slightly different legal structure. But the end result is identical: multiple owners jointly managing a building in which they all own a stake.
        ocdtrekkie 4y ago
        I mean, FWIW, the issue primarily relates solely with residential dwellings: Businesses generally have a better grasp on risk factors. Also, many residential cooperatives, to my knowledge, refer largely to house-sized structures, especially... in the mid-1800s. It's much more affordable to manage repairs for less floors and traditional wood frame construction. It's also plausible the legal structure of a condominium itself is the problem that leads to, well, largely incompetent management. Obviously I'm not sure landlords are a winning solution for anyone either. But particularly for large structures, I would prefer actual public/government management over a quasi-government entity comprised of self-centered residents.
jcpst 4y ago
My HOA is primarily a collective bargaining tool for trash pickup. Over 80% of the annual fee goes to trash service. The cost of the HOA is significantly less than even the most budget-minded trash service.
- QuarterReptile 4y ago
  Do you know how such a minimal scope had been maintained? I'm envisioning either a pretty new HOA or maybe a structure that somehow forbids scope creep.
  - mbauman 4y ago
    In my experience, I've seen lots of _old_ HOAs that are similar — only there for utilities that the larger municipality is lacking (like trash, recycling, snow removal, etc). It's the new ones — those that are set up by the developer from the get go that get lambasted and become the stereotype.
  - jcpst 4y ago
    Definitely not new- when I purchased the home, my attic had a box with HOA board member documents from the 1980s.
    - jcpst 4y ago
      Also, I can’t say I know, other than everyone on the board seems to agree with how it’s ran.
jcranmer 4y ago
Given the circumstances mentioned in GP's comment, it appears they are living in a condo, and the HOA is constructed to cover the rules for the use and maintenance of jointly-owned portions of the building. This isn't a case of "HOA is mad that next door neighbor used a wrong species of grass for their lawn."
ericbarrett 4y ago
HOAs are the most local form of democratic government that most Americans interact with. They have an elected board, which you can run for if you're a member (owner), and an amendable constitution. In every state that I'm aware of, you have full access to the budget and all meeting minutes. I've even seen recall elections and funded campaigns. Democracy is never perfect, but for any place where I'm living in close quarters to my neighbors (e.g. not in a rural area with 20-acre lots) I'd 1000x rather an HOA than either anarchy or some builder-run "committee."
no_butterscotch 4y ago
AirBnB is itself an HOA over a distributed network of properties. Violate its rules and you're a goner. Don't pay their "taxes", whether literal taxes or AirBnB taxing you by having you pay via your labor in changing your home, curating your listing(s) on AirBnB, writing reviews on AirBnB, being responsive above a percentile set by AirBnB, etc. All as AirBnB demands. No input from you.

Sure let’s delegate decisions that are entirely neighborhood and building specific to a company that doesn’t even understand the local issues. Yeah HOAs can suck and aren’t needed in some cases but in my case the HOA is doing the correct thing and legal action has been taken against these places. It’s a shame airbnb won’t enforce local government policies because it will eventually blow up in their face only after people like me and my neighbors are harmed.

rdxm 4y ago

[dead]

ajhurliman 4y ago

I think there's a point to be made about single family dwellings, but it's hard to imagine how a 50 condo building would operate without one. Who takes care of the pool? Or fixes the elevator? The governance is definitely poorly structured, though. In my (limited) experience I've seen a board that gets elected and then proceeds to abuse their power to advance their own financial positions. I think there should be a 3rd party company that competes for the management contract and annual contracts are awarded based off democratic vote from all the owners.

ocdtrekkie 4y ago
My takeaway from dealing with a condo HOA is that condos shouldn't legally exist, because people owning fractional buildings is doomed to result in structural collapse. Elected residents aren't qualified to make decisions about long-term maintenance which becomes more severe and expensive over time, and they have perverse incentives to avoid spending money. Faced with a substantial enough cost, board members can opt to hide problems while they try to sell their own stake in the building. That's being said, $&@# AirBnB.
- gaadd33 4y ago
  "People owning fractional buildings" has existed for almost 150 years, at what point should we start to see NYC buildings collapsing due to structural collapse?
  - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    This is false. The first condominium in the continental US was built in 1960, the entire scheme is only 63 years old. There's some older buildings that have been converted, sure, but the legal concept isn't that old. And buildings start needing more significant structural work after forty or fifty years. Which is to say, yes, I expect many more condos to collapse over the next couple decades.
    - gaadd33 4y ago
      Given the extremely similar structure in operation (residents are elected to the board, control maintenance fees, etc) and that insurance companies consider them the same for insuring purposes, what makes condos significantly worse than co-ops (which have been around for ~150 years)?
    - techsupporter 4y ago
      > The first condominium in the continental US was built in 1960, the entire scheme is only 63 years old. This is correct in the sense that it is technically correct (for residential dwellings; commercial condominiums have existed for almost a hundred years prior). However, residential cooperatives (co-ops) have existed in the United States since the mid-1800s. These are functionally the same as a condominium with a slightly different legal structure. But the end result is identical: multiple owners jointly managing a building in which they all own a stake.
      - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
        I mean, FWIW, the issue primarily relates solely with residential dwellings: Businesses generally have a better grasp on risk factors. Also, many residential cooperatives, to my knowledge, refer largely to house-sized structures, especially... in the mid-1800s. It's much more affordable to manage repairs for less floors and traditional wood frame construction. It's also plausible the legal structure of a condominium itself is the problem that leads to, well, largely incompetent management. Obviously I'm not sure landlords are a winning solution for anyone either. But particularly for large structures, I would prefer actual public/government management over a quasi-government entity comprised of self-centered residents.

jcpst 4y ago

My HOA is primarily a collective bargaining tool for trash pickup. Over 80% of the annual fee goes to trash service. The cost of the HOA is significantly less than even the most budget-minded trash service.

QuarterReptile 4y ago
Do you know how such a minimal scope had been maintained? I'm envisioning either a pretty new HOA or maybe a structure that somehow forbids scope creep.
- mbauman 4y ago
  In my experience, I've seen lots of _old_ HOAs that are similar — only there for utilities that the larger municipality is lacking (like trash, recycling, snow removal, etc). It's the new ones — those that are set up by the developer from the get go that get lambasted and become the stereotype.
- jcpst 4y ago
  Definitely not new- when I purchased the home, my attic had a box with HOA board member documents from the 1980s.
  - jcpst 4y ago
    Also, I can’t say I know, other than everyone on the board seems to agree with how it’s ran.

jcranmer 4y ago

Given the circumstances mentioned in GP's comment, it appears they are living in a condo, and the HOA is constructed to cover the rules for the use and maintenance of jointly-owned portions of the building. This isn't a case of "HOA is mad that next door neighbor used a wrong species of grass for their lawn."

ericbarrett 4y ago

HOAs are the most local form of democratic government that most Americans interact with. They have an elected board, which you can run for if you're a member (owner), and an amendable constitution. In every state that I'm aware of, you have full access to the budget and all meeting minutes. I've even seen recall elections and funded campaigns. Democracy is never perfect, but for any place where I'm living in close quarters to my neighbors (e.g. not in a rural area with 20-acre lots) I'd 1000x rather an HOA than either anarchy or some builder-run "committee."

no_butterscotch 4y ago

AirBnB is itself an HOA over a distributed network of properties. Violate its rules and you're a goner. Don't pay their "taxes", whether literal taxes or AirBnB taxing you by having you pay via your labor in changing your home, curating your listing(s) on AirBnB, writing reviews on AirBnB, being responsive above a percentile set by AirBnB, etc. All as AirBnB demands. No input from you.