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I personally experienced check fraud about 7 years ago. 4 fake checks, $6,500 stolen. Fake checks looked real to me, as did my signature. Was confusing to me a

I personally experienced check fraud about 7 years ago. 4 fake checks, $6,500 stolen. Fake checks looked real to me, as did my signature. Was confusing to me as the signature looked like mine, I did a triple take trying to figure out if I had written them. Upon further inspection the signature on all 4 checks was absolutely identical, my signature looks slightly different every time I sign, but these 4 were identical in every way (overlaid them in an image processing tool to convince myself). Figuring they photocopied the signature from an existing check, I went through my archive of cancelled checks until I found a perfect match for the signature. Turns out the signature was copied from a check that was written to a handyman for some maintenance work. Brought this info to the police and the bank. I don't know if they did anything with it, as they're not allowed to discuss details with me. Anyhow, long story short, took 3 months, but the $6,500 was eventually returned to me. Much better experience than crypto! Lastly, I had to close the checking account for fraud and get a new one. When I asked about ordering new checks, the bank manager admonished me "haven't I learned my lesson" and not to ever use checks. All of your personal information, address, and bank account # are in one place he said. I told him it's terrifying when your bank manager tells you not to use checks on the checking account his bank offers. I write very few checks now. Thankfully most transfers can now be done digitally (and without crypto I might add). Sign of the times I guess.

puffoflogic 4y ago
> as they're not allowed to discuss details with me. That would not be true if they actually investigated. This is code for "we don't care"; there was simply a miscommunication here when you did not recognize the euphemism.
- helsontaveras18 4y ago
  Check fraud is a federal crime. I think an investigation did occur. It's in the banks/police's best interest to withhold details regarding an active investigation, because what if you go tell the suspect the details?
tobyjsullivan 4y ago
The recurring comparison to crypto is ironic here. The central purpose of crypto is that, when used correctly, it makes exactly this type of fraud impossible. These stories show the fundamental problem with checks is that using them correctly exposes you to the fraud risk. I'm not pro-crypto or anything. The bar to use it "correctly" is too high to be practical. I'm only highlighting the irony of this particular comparison.
- chrisco255 4y ago
  Yeah, to me one of the central problems with both checks and credit cards is you have to expose your private keys (your routing num, acct num, address, etc) to make the transaction. In an era of elliptical curve signatures and other cryptography methods, this sort of practice should be done away with altogether, even for non-blockchain tech.
  - lordfrito 4y ago
    Great analogy. Agreed, checks are insecure and obsolete technology for the reasons you stated. It does seem, however, that modern digital payment systems (mainstream, non-crypto) have largely caught up with the times. Your bank password is essentially a private key. It's not foolproof, but the challenge of keeping your password private is no different than keeping your private key private. From an OPSEC standpoint it's a level playfield. Of course these systems are still vulnerable to social engineering attacks, credential theft, outright fraud etc. These kinds of human problems can't be solved with technology. The old security holes still exist (check fraud, credit card fraud) as the system continues to support ancient/deprecated payment methods. Eventually they'll be obsoleted. I read a report stating that check use has been declining steadily. In 2000 there were 42.6b check payments, in 2018 there were only 14.5b. I'd say we're getting there. The younger generation embraces the new tech, it's only a matter of time. If this was 15 years ago, I'd say crypto was providing a solution to a problem. But since then bank systems have caught up, and have additional protections of FDIC, regulations, etc. I'd say that modern digital finance is already largely meeting the promises made by crypto enthusiasts, with none of the downsides. Put another way, if crypto matures and doesn't die in flames, it will basically look like one more competing digital payment system to those already offered by TradFi. People get caught up in the tech, but at the end of the day all that matters is you can use a password to digitally move money. We can do that now. Crypto is ubiquitous / crypto is irrelevant.
grecy 4y ago
> I told him it's terrifying when your bank manager tells you not to use checks on the checking account his bank offers. It might be terrifying, but it's good honest advice, which is always worth it weight in gold. The man is an expert. I would take his advice.
stevekemp 4y ago
As far as I can tell, from reading sites like this, one of the most common uses of checks in America seems to be for paying rent? Other than that I'm kinda curious where you'd use a check at all? When I was a student, in the UK, cheques were only their way out. I remember once or twice paying for mail-order items with cheques, and paying for groceries at a supermarket with a cheque. (Back then our bank-cards would have "Cheque Guarantee £50", or similar on them, and you had to show the card as proof the cheque would be honoured even if there were insufficient funds.) In the UK, and here in Finland where I now live, people tend to pay rent/morgtages via automatic fund-transfers scheduled to run once a month, or direct-debit, so the idea of mailing a cheque for rent seems particularly archaic.
- derwiki 4y ago
  Vendors who don’t want to pay a processing fee. Handyman example rings true, up through some bigger renovations I had done. Zelle is becoming more common though.

puffoflogic 4y ago

> as they're not allowed to discuss details with me. That would not be true if they actually investigated. This is code for "we don't care"; there was simply a miscommunication here when you did not recognize the euphemism.

helsontaveras18 4y ago
Check fraud is a federal crime. I think an investigation did occur. It's in the banks/police's best interest to withhold details regarding an active investigation, because what if you go tell the suspect the details?

tobyjsullivan 4y ago

The recurring comparison to crypto is ironic here. The central purpose of crypto is that, when used correctly, it makes exactly this type of fraud impossible. These stories show the fundamental problem with checks is that using them correctly exposes you to the fraud risk. I'm not pro-crypto or anything. The bar to use it "correctly" is too high to be practical. I'm only highlighting the irony of this particular comparison.

chrisco255 4y ago
Yeah, to me one of the central problems with both checks and credit cards is you have to expose your private keys (your routing num, acct num, address, etc) to make the transaction. In an era of elliptical curve signatures and other cryptography methods, this sort of practice should be done away with altogether, even for non-blockchain tech.
- lordfrito 4y ago
  Great analogy. Agreed, checks are insecure and obsolete technology for the reasons you stated. It does seem, however, that modern digital payment systems (mainstream, non-crypto) have largely caught up with the times. Your bank password is essentially a private key. It's not foolproof, but the challenge of keeping your password private is no different than keeping your private key private. From an OPSEC standpoint it's a level playfield. Of course these systems are still vulnerable to social engineering attacks, credential theft, outright fraud etc. These kinds of human problems can't be solved with technology. The old security holes still exist (check fraud, credit card fraud) as the system continues to support ancient/deprecated payment methods. Eventually they'll be obsoleted. I read a report stating that check use has been declining steadily. In 2000 there were 42.6b check payments, in 2018 there were only 14.5b. I'd say we're getting there. The younger generation embraces the new tech, it's only a matter of time. If this was 15 years ago, I'd say crypto was providing a solution to a problem. But since then bank systems have caught up, and have additional protections of FDIC, regulations, etc. I'd say that modern digital finance is already largely meeting the promises made by crypto enthusiasts, with none of the downsides. Put another way, if crypto matures and doesn't die in flames, it will basically look like one more competing digital payment system to those already offered by TradFi. People get caught up in the tech, but at the end of the day all that matters is you can use a password to digitally move money. We can do that now. Crypto is ubiquitous / crypto is irrelevant.

grecy 4y ago

> I told him it's terrifying when your bank manager tells you not to use checks on the checking account his bank offers. It might be terrifying, but it's good honest advice, which is always worth it weight in gold. The man is an expert. I would take his advice.

stevekemp 4y ago

As far as I can tell, from reading sites like this, one of the most common uses of checks in America seems to be for paying rent? Other than that I'm kinda curious where you'd use a check at all? When I was a student, in the UK, cheques were only their way out. I remember once or twice paying for mail-order items with cheques, and paying for groceries at a supermarket with a cheque. (Back then our bank-cards would have "Cheque Guarantee £50", or similar on them, and you had to show the card as proof the cheque would be honoured even if there were insufficient funds.) In the UK, and here in Finland where I now live, people tend to pay rent/morgtages via automatic fund-transfers scheduled to run once a month, or direct-debit, so the idea of mailing a cheque for rent seems particularly archaic.

derwiki 4y ago
Vendors who don’t want to pay a processing fee. Handyman example rings true, up through some bigger renovations I had done. Zelle is becoming more common though.