12 ms·

My experience with check fraud

66 points by Amorymeltzer 4y ago

cuteboy19 4y ago
The last time I ever used a check was in 2007, when my grandfather handed me a birthday present. It's such an ancient concept in the non US world that it's now reserved only for ceremony
- hrns 4y ago
  Living in central Europe, when Air Canada gave me check (compensation for the rescheduled flight) I went through a lot of effort to cash it. Once in a lifetime experience!
  - chollida1 4y ago
    Interesting. What constitutes "a lot of effort to cash it"? I'm Canadian and I rarely use them but our banking app just lets you take a picture of both sides and that's it. Also you can just put them into an ATM as a deposit and your done. Also you can go into the bank and hand it to the teller and your done. I'd be interested in why you had to go through alot of effort to cash your check.
    - hrns 4y ago
      Only one bank in Poland handles them, I had to open a separate account just to cash it. As far as I remember the cashing in process took some time (about a week maybe?) and the fees were about 25% of the check value (operations + currency exchange). There's no option in doing it from the app/ATM afaik.
      - chollida1 4y ago
        I don't want to dox you but I have to ask, what bank in Poland do you use that wouldn't take a check? I've got a friend there and he says he has no problem cashing checks at his bank and has never heard of a bank not taking a check and there were no fees for cashing checks. The exchange rate sucks but that has nothing todo with a check EDIT he did say it can take a week for the money to clear, so that is a big downside.
        hrns 4y ago
        Well, my bank did not handle them - the cashier told me that there is only one bank that handles them (Pekao SA) so I didn't waste time searching for others. Maybe your friend has a company/businesses account? The services may be different than for a personal one.
        chollida1 4y ago
        Good to know. I appreciate you teaching me something today!!
    - krisoft 4y ago
      > I'd be interested in why you had to go through alot of effort to cash your check. I’m not the commenter you are asking from I also used to live in central europe. There as far as I can tell the concept of a “check” simply doesn’t exist. So much so that I don’t even know what is the equivalent word in the local language. If I would get one I would need to go to my bank in person and ask them if they can do anything with. I would already count that as a hassle, but I just looked it up online and it seems my bank doesn’t handle checks. There are rummours online that some other banks do cash checks, but it seems some of those have changed their policy since and they are no longer accepting checks either. All in all it works as well as being paid with a rai stone or a cowry sea shell, while lacking the aesthetic benefits of those.
    - wiredfool 4y ago
      For me, in Ireland, cashing a US check through my bank teller costs 150ish eur (that's one hundred and fifty, not a buck fifty) and takes 6 weeks. They basically have to hand process it and send it to their US correspondent bank. At one point, I got tax refund and stimulus checks from the Treasury, and it turned out to just be easier to endorse them to my remaining US account and mail them to the branch that has my account. In theory I could use the bank's remote deposit capture service, but: 1) The checks were too big, there's a ~$2500 limit on RDC, and 2) The bank has complained in the past that I'm not supposed to use it when I'm overseas. There's some regulation that they're worried about. I've seen a couple of checks in Ireland that haven't been from the US, mainly tax refunds IIRC, but they're super rare and no ATMs will take them. They'll take Euros for deposits, but not checks. So it's a trip into see the Cash desk at the bank.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Foreign currency can be less straightforward. Admittedly a number of years back, a Canadian company paid me for a photo of mine they found online that they wanted for an article. Ended up having to go to a human bank teller to deposit it.
- bbbbb5 4y ago
  My Dubai, Hong Kong and Singapore banks have issued me cheque books. Clearly some people use them outside of the US, although I'm not quite sure for what.
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    Oh yes, chequebooks are still issued, but no one uses them. Chequebooks used to be these thick 50-100 page ones which used to cost a lot too. Nowadays you would be lucky to get a 15 page leaflet
- maxerickson 4y ago
  That's how they are used in the US too, if you look at things a bit askew. Other payment methods work fine and are widespread, so the vast majority of uses of checks are by people who have confused ideas about how they work (they prefer the ceremony of writing a check compared to the effort of understanding), or in particular circumstances where they were used traditionally and maybe satisfy some antiquated legal mechanism (almost a literal ceremonial money transfer).
Overtonwindow 4y ago
I am genuinely surprised people in America are still using checks. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but… A check? If you have checks laying around, you should destroy them. If you need something like a check, get a money order.
- drukenemo 4y ago
  Most countries in Western Europe and South America (that I know of) have stopped using checks at least 10 years ago.
  - debesyla 4y ago
    And Baltic countries (like Lithuania) never used checks at all - now it's only instant and free SEPA bank transfers.
  - alkonaut 4y ago
    25 I’d say. I stopped using cash 10-15 years ago. I mean entirely, no exceptions.
- sneak 4y ago
  I can write a check in my home or office, put it in an envelope with a stamp, and put it in the outgoing post, all without going anywhere or paying anyone. I can complete the whole payment task in 5 minutes. Money orders have a fee and require time and gasoline to go somewhere to get them. In 5 minutes I haven't even arrived at the nearest location to purchase a money order.
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    a check gives transaction control to the parties directly participating.. a check can be physically held on private property. Why people cry out that this is "ancient" just says to me that people are conditioned to depend on outside companies for every aspect of financial life, minute by minute.
    - 4y ago
technothrasher 4y ago
Ok, separate from the fraud, this guy wrote a personal check instead of using the organization's funds to pay a state fee? That feels pretty sloppy for somebody running an organization "dedicated to improving financial literacy." While clearly innocent and done just for convenience, taking short cuts with a 501(c)(3) org is a bad idea. To keep the accounting straight, he'd end up having to get them to do up donation paperwork on it, which removes his goal of not bothering people over a small amount. Otherwise, it's co-mingling of funds.
- pilotneko 4y ago
  He just ate the cost. It’s five dollars.
  - hayyyyydos 4y ago
    > To keep the accounting straight
- PopAlongKid 4y ago
  > I decided it was simpler to pay the fee myself, rather than bothering Ben Holland (Treasurer for the Center) to have the Center pay the fee. But what does Ben Holland say? Yes, it is very sloppy to say the least. I recently completed a two-year term as the treasurer for a non-profit professional association, and I would have been highly peeved had one of the other board members gone ahead and done this without first "bothering" me. It is the treasurer's job to make sure essential payments are made and recorded on the books. Also, while my org does both make and receive payments electronically, we also have highly fraud-resistant business-style checks (watermarks etc) for times when check payments were easiest or required.
a9ex 4y ago
I never used a check my entire life, it‘s just not a thing in Europe (: In the pre-internet-banking times, you would just fill out one of these forms [0] to send money from your account directly to someone else. [0] https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahlschein#/media/Datei%3AZahlschein.jpg https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahlschein#/media/Datei%3AZa...
- sneak 4y ago
  Checks are basically the same thing, they're just given to the payee to give to their bank (to give to your bank) instead. The high penalties (historically) for writing bad checks meant that if you had a signed check in hand, you had at least a small level of confidence that you had actually been paid the money, much like cash in hand (it could of course be counterfeit, but you can assume to some extent that it is not).
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  > I never used a check my entire life, it‘s just not a thing in Europe (: Which parts of Europe? I use them all the time in France. A bunch of taxes companies have to pay can't be paid by credit card. It's either check or bank transfer.
  - bigbacaloa 4y ago
    In Spain I've never seen a check except ones sent to me from the US and bank checks to pay mortgages.
    - harperlee 4y ago
      In Spain it’s quite rare although they’re still used for things like mortgages and inheritances.
  - silvestrov 4y ago
    In Denmark checks are not supported payment anymore, not even at banks: https://danskebank.dk/privat/find-hjaelp/betalinger-og-overfoersler/slut-med-checks https://danskebank.dk/privat/find-hjaelp/betalinger-og-overf... Everything is debit card, bank transfer or MobilePay. Creditcards are only really used for travel and payment of US companies.
bigbacaloa 4y ago
Unbelievable that anyone still uses handwritten checks. Unbelievable that anyone has done so in the current century. There exist diverse alternatives both more secure and easier to use and they have existed for many, many years.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- sethd 4y ago
  For larger purchases there’s often a fee to pay by credit card. If the fee is equal to or lower than my cash back rate, I’ll pay by card, but sometimes checks are the only feasible option. Recent example: Tree trimming company. They accepted check (no fee) or card with 3% fee. The highest cash back card I have for generic purchase is 2%, so I paid by check instead.
  - alkonaut 4y ago
    Now I’m more shocked to learn that having work done by a professional doesn’t result in an invoice but instead requires immediate payment? Card fees in Europe I think can’t be shifted to the customer but that obviously means they are just part of the price. But - the price is the same regardless of payment method, so there is no money saved by avoiding cards. That’s why I consider everything to be 0-fee (invoice, card, money transfer).
  - bigbacaloa 4y ago
    Literally I've not seen a check in twenty+ years except for bank checks used to pay a mortgage. Where I live one can pay by direct bank transfer or debit card, usually with no fee while checks carry exorbitant fees and one has to make an appointment at the bank to cash one.
- jjav 4y ago
  > Unbelievable that anyone still uses handwritten checks. Unbelievable that anyone has done so in the current century. There exist diverse alternatives both more secure and easier to use and they have existed for many, many years. Can you tell us what these supposedly more secure alternatives are? At least in the US, I don't believe there is anything better at the end of the day. Credit cards can be more convenient, but not all places accept them and of the ones who do sometimes they charge an inordinate fee. All the private companies (paypal, venmo, etc) are out because it is well known they'll freeze your account without reason and without recourse. So if you need a secure mechanism, stay away from those. That leaves checks as the most universal, overhead-free and secure mechanism, other than plain cash but that's inconvenient for large amounts.
pettycashstash2 4y ago
Check writing is very common and embedded in American culture. Yes there are risks, however there are more risks with scams with VENMo, PayPal, cash app, app du jour. yes more people are moving to these services , but checks are still needed for many formal transactions: ex purchase a home, or fill up my kids lunch account without being charged A CONVeniance fee.
- ghaff 4y ago
  I'm sure a lot of it is that I'm used to them. But, for the most part, checks either written by myself or by my bank via their web site work pretty well with a few exceptions. For an individual, receiving especially a large check in exchange for something you're selling carries risk that you can't wholly mitigate. (Maybe some of the systems available to merchants are available to individuals who need something like this once in a blue moon--but I've never heard of such.) Another case is chasing down checks for people who have signed up for some activity and/or handling last minute waiting lists etc. I dealt with this sort of thing for many years and electronic transfers are a lot less hassle.
  - devilbunny 4y ago
    > receiving especially a large check in exchange for something you're selling carries risk that you can't wholly mitigate. I mean, if you accompany them to their bank, and have them issue a cashier's check, you're definitely getting paid unless the entire bank is insolvent, because you're not counting on the check clearinghouse to handle the whole matter - the bank is staking its own reputation on willingness to pay.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Which adds a ton of friction to the transaction. For that matter you can require them to pay you in cash. My point is that, historically, personal checks were the default for a lot of person to person transactions in the US but they carried some risk--depending on the situation.
MerelyMortal 4y ago
Apparently a simple line after the spelled-out amount isn't enough, as it's clearly visible on the low resolution scan.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  Indeed. I think the most surprising thing here is that the check was accepted with those horizontal lines left in it.
MerelyMortal 4y ago
I've never had one of my checks washed, but in second or third grade, a classmate tried "washing" one of my worksheets. Thankfully the teacher called me to her desk to why didn't I turn in my worksheet (I had), and thankfully my worksheet was on top of the stack which allowed me to see it and point out that I turned it in, and someone else erased my name (still somewhat visible) and wrote theirs. It seems that many people aren't observant, don't care, and/or don't want the confrontation.
- adql 4y ago
  The credit/debit card must be signed by owner. In my history of using debit cards for most, and now for near everything not a single time anyone bothered to check. Even back when the magnetic stripe was used. I also was using out of date identity document for good 6 months and datacenter staff also haven't bothered to check that.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    I'll add that my signature at this point is a totally undecipherable inconsistent scrawl that is even more so in a thin box on the back of a card. I assume I'm not that unusual, especially given that I actually did learn Palmer script once upon a time. I sort of have to laugh whenever I still sometimes need to sign a credit card receipt.
maratc 4y ago
For all those who tune in to the "checks are so 19th century" tune: please note this is a good story about check fraud, as the OP eventually got his money back. With Paypal/Venmo/app-du-jour, in the event of an account takeover, the result might be different. Check fraud is an old problem — as old as the checks themselves — and it's a problem well understood by the banks, the police, investigators, and judges. On the other hand, good luck explaining the police such obscure technical details as "they installed a proxy on my IP" or "they sim-swapped me to intercept the one-time password". On another note, checks charge 0% commission: to pay someone $5, you need $5.
- krisoft 4y ago
  > With Paypal/Venmo/app-du-jour, in the event of an account takeover, the result might be different. You are saying it as if checks vs apps are the only two option. > On the other hand, good luck explaining the police such obscure technical details as "they installed a proxy on my IP" or "they sim-swapped me to intercept the one-time password". Why would I explain any such thing? It is not my job to know how the bank got hacked.
  - PopAlongKid 4y ago
    >It is not my job to know how the bank got hacked. But it may be in your best interest to show that you are not the hacker.
  - maratc 4y ago
    > It is not my job to know how the bank got hacked. And without any explanations, it's not your bank's job to return your money.
    - krisoft 4y ago
      The explanation is that you see a transaction you are not recognising. You point at it and say “i didn’t authorise that one” and let them investigate. They have the logs, you don’t. This is probably the worst day of your life or close to it, while it is just a normal regular occurence for your bank. They have policies to handle it from their side. They will ask a lot of question, perhaps ask you to make a police report. I ask you this, if you have chest pain and shortness of breath, would you: a; jurry-rig an oscilloscope to check your ECG, start reading wikipedia all about cardiology, and then find a nurse to tell them about how concerned you are about your QT interval Or b; go to a hospital and tell them that you have chest pain and shortness of breath?
bayindirh 4y ago
This is why Uniball has SuperInk, and Noodler’s has Bulletproof.
- puffoflogic 4y ago
  Bulletproof is pretty dangerous stuff though. Granted, I never had any issues with it when I was using it to write rent checks monthly, but I think long term it's likely to require a carpet replacement or two!
MerelyMortal 4y ago
My bank allows me to have multiple checking accounts. I have money direct deposited in one account, and I transfer over just as much money as I need for checks into another account, and transfer over just as much money as I need for autobilling into a third account. I trust the entity that does the direct deposit, otherwise I would set up a fourth account just for that.
owlbite 4y ago
Moving from the UK to the US a few years ago was like going back in time 20 years in finance tech. No-one supported contactless payment, cards didn't implement it, despite it having been standard tech in the UK for years. The UK de-facto deprecated cheques in 2011 when the cheque-guarantee scheme was closed, so it was very shocking to need one to rent an apartment in the US. (The UK would just use a bank transfer). Even with improvements seemingly brought on by covid, the US still seems massively behind the times - for example ACH still takes several days to do a bank transfer that is instant in the UK, and venmo or whatever seems to be overcomplicating it.
- javajosh 4y ago
  Yes, and moving to the EU was like moving forward 20 years. The IBAN system is fantastic! The seller gives you their IBAN number, and you tell your bank to send money to that number. It happens instantly and for 0% commission. There are no routing number/account numbers. (Granted, I never had to deal with fraud so I'm not sure how that goes. I doubt that credit card style charge backs are possible.) It's also interesting that in some parts of Europe (esp Germany) cash is still the normal way of paying, even for large amounts.
  - hnbad 4y ago
    > I doubt that credit card style charge backs are possible. Actually they are, but only for SEPA direct debit (i.e. you giving your IBAN to the seller to authorize a recurring charge). Also I'm not sure if this is automatic or just standard practice but failed SEPA charges will invalidate the mandate, so you'll have to issue a new one if it ever bounces. Some(?) banks also allow you to reverse a bank transfer in online banking but I'm not sure if this just an "undo" before the transfer has actually gone through or an actual reverse charge. You can also set up recurring transfers in most online banking software for free but again they're not usually reversible like SEPA direct debit payments are. As for cash payments in Germany: the pandemic led to a lot of retail adoption of debit card payments but if you don't know in advance whether you'll be able to pay by card, it's good to keep cash on hand. Most larger retail stores (clothing, pharmacies, etc) and pricier restaurants take debit cards, grocerers/bakers and non-chain fast food places often only take cash. You probably can't pay for your Currywurst with your debit card but you can pick up your prescription (if it's not fully covered by health insurance) or pay for a fancy dinner. In the latter case they might even take credit cards, if they're particularly fancy.
lordfrito 4y ago
I personally experienced check fraud about 7 years ago. 4 fake checks, $6,500 stolen. Fake checks looked real to me, as did my signature. Was confusing to me as the signature looked like mine, I did a triple take trying to figure out if I had written them. Upon further inspection the signature on all 4 checks was absolutely identical, my signature looks slightly different every time I sign, but these 4 were identical in every way (overlaid them in an image processing tool to convince myself). Figuring they photocopied the signature from an existing check, I went through my archive of cancelled checks until I found a perfect match for the signature. Turns out the signature was copied from a check that was written to a handyman for some maintenance work. Brought this info to the police and the bank. I don't know if they did anything with it, as they're not allowed to discuss details with me. Anyhow, long story short, took 3 months, but the $6,500 was eventually returned to me. Much better experience than crypto! Lastly, I had to close the checking account for fraud and get a new one. When I asked about ordering new checks, the bank manager admonished me "haven't I learned my lesson" and not to ever use checks. All of your personal information, address, and bank account # are in one place he said. I told him it's terrifying when your bank manager tells you not to use checks on the checking account his bank offers. I write very few checks now. Thankfully most transfers can now be done digitally (and without crypto I might add). Sign of the times I guess.
- puffoflogic 4y ago
  > as they're not allowed to discuss details with me. That would not be true if they actually investigated. This is code for "we don't care"; there was simply a miscommunication here when you did not recognize the euphemism.
  - helsontaveras18 4y ago
    Check fraud is a federal crime. I think an investigation did occur. It's in the banks/police's best interest to withhold details regarding an active investigation, because what if you go tell the suspect the details?
- tobyjsullivan 4y ago
  The recurring comparison to crypto is ironic here. The central purpose of crypto is that, when used correctly, it makes exactly this type of fraud impossible. These stories show the fundamental problem with checks is that using them correctly exposes you to the fraud risk. I'm not pro-crypto or anything. The bar to use it "correctly" is too high to be practical. I'm only highlighting the irony of this particular comparison.
beej71 4y ago
Property taxes are the only place I still use them. I can pay with a credit card, but they charge a percentage "convenience fee". The county does have a drop box for paying, though.
- ghaff 4y ago
  What happens a lot of the time is that towns farm out their epayments to a private company for "free" that, reasonably enough, needs to recoup their expenses and make a profit. I just use my bank's bill pay that will cut a check and mail it for free if they can't do an electronic transfer.
crazygringo 4y ago
This is exactly why the USPS started replacing the blue box opening slots with a narrower version in New York City and surrounding areas starting back in 2019 [1], to prevent "mail fishing" -- retrieving envelopes from people paying bills, specifically to wash found checks in order commit fraud. Which, if you used to use the blue boxes for mailing thin packages, is a huge annoyance because you can't anymore. :( Seriously, these days nobody should be writing personal checks using a pen. If you do need a check for a transaction, use a cashier's check (different from a personal check, it's drawn on the bank) for occasional large amounts (like apartment deposit or buying a used car), or most banks allow you to send a paper check via online banking for routine needs -- you fill out the details online and it mails a paper check to the recipient that, AFAIK, can't be washed for check fraud. (All of this is USA specific, to be clear.) [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/nyregion/mailbox-theft-fishing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/nyregion/mailbox-theft-fi...
- rippercushions 4y ago
  > Seriously, these days nobody should be writing personal checks FTFY. The US is the only country in the world that I know of where writing personal checks is still commonplace. In Europe they're thoroughly obsolete, and in Asia, where they were mostly uncommon in the first place, even the few once check-happy countries like Singapore have pretty much migrated off.
  - tnjm 4y ago
    French resident here. Received a bill from this week from a medical lab for some tests; the only payment options are either visit the lab in person (an hour's drive away) or mail a personal check. This is not uncommon here, and even most large supermarket chains still accept checks.
    - nicbou 4y ago
      Really? I’m approaching 10 years in Germany and I have never seen a cheque in Europe. SEPA transfers are the standard, and this is in the land of the faxes.
peter303 4y ago
The only physical check I have written in the past four years was to the US Passport Office. They refuse any electronic payment method. The next most recent paper check was a wedding gift. But modern wedding registries accept digital payments now.
kylehotchkiss 4y ago
One thing I dislike is the inability to disable ACH for a given account. I really want to use an account for safekeeping that can’t have a check or ACH transaction run against it, rather I’d have to use banks internal tool to move funds. Does this exist?
- raincom 4y ago
  Chase and other banks have something like "ACH & Check block". Usually, such a thing is available for business accounts.
wdb 4y ago
Can still remember when I received a check in the early 2000s from an American company. I just didn't know what to do with it. Luckily, the local bank branch knew what to do. Even 15-20 years ago checks were pretty uncommon in my part of Europe
xbeta 4y ago
What's the Americans obsession with checks? I worked and lived in other countries , including Asia, Europe and Latin America. Most of them moved on to digital payment (especially China) where I found the US and Canada still heavily relied on a piece of paper to process a large amount of funds with no security. In US, I realized even buying groceries they accept checks written at the counter. Why can't the US just move on from checks?
- ridgered4 4y ago
  I'm in the US and I use checks for some bills because they charge me a fee to pay with other methods (off the top of my head, my property taxes and electric bill have these drawbacks). I tend to use the bank bill pay system for these instead of writing an actual check though.
spicymaki 4y ago
Really good story about check fraud. I refuse to use personal checks. It has your account number and personal information listed on them! If I am forced to use checks I will have my bank issue the check by mail or I will go to the bank and have them issue a bank check. If I am in a pinch I will use a money order from the post office. I once had a business account (one where they stated they did signature matching) and someone performed fraud by withdrawing money using a ripped piece of looseleaf with some sketchy writing on it. I went into the bank to ask them about the withdrawal and they produced an image of the "withdrawal slip" and they were quite frankly embarrassed that they cashed it (no authentication at all). That bank is no longer in business btw.
porbelm 4y ago
Checks existing at all is just mindboggling. Most countries quit that crap thirty years ago.

66 points by Amorymeltzer 4y ago

The last time I ever used a check was in 2007, when my grandfather handed me a birthday present. It's such an ancient concept in the non US world that it's now reserved only for ceremony

hrns 4y ago
Living in central Europe, when Air Canada gave me check (compensation for the rescheduled flight) I went through a lot of effort to cash it. Once in a lifetime experience!
- chollida1 4y ago
  Interesting. What constitutes "a lot of effort to cash it"? I'm Canadian and I rarely use them but our banking app just lets you take a picture of both sides and that's it. Also you can just put them into an ATM as a deposit and your done. Also you can go into the bank and hand it to the teller and your done. I'd be interested in why you had to go through alot of effort to cash your check.
  - hrns 4y ago
    Only one bank in Poland handles them, I had to open a separate account just to cash it. As far as I remember the cashing in process took some time (about a week maybe?) and the fees were about 25% of the check value (operations + currency exchange). There's no option in doing it from the app/ATM afaik.
    - chollida1 4y ago
      I don't want to dox you but I have to ask, what bank in Poland do you use that wouldn't take a check? I've got a friend there and he says he has no problem cashing checks at his bank and has never heard of a bank not taking a check and there were no fees for cashing checks. The exchange rate sucks but that has nothing todo with a check EDIT he did say it can take a week for the money to clear, so that is a big downside.
      - hrns 4y ago
        Well, my bank did not handle them - the cashier told me that there is only one bank that handles them (Pekao SA) so I didn't waste time searching for others. Maybe your friend has a company/businesses account? The services may be different than for a personal one.
        chollida1 4y ago
        Good to know. I appreciate you teaching me something today!!
  - krisoft 4y ago
    > I'd be interested in why you had to go through alot of effort to cash your check. I’m not the commenter you are asking from I also used to live in central europe. There as far as I can tell the concept of a “check” simply doesn’t exist. So much so that I don’t even know what is the equivalent word in the local language. If I would get one I would need to go to my bank in person and ask them if they can do anything with. I would already count that as a hassle, but I just looked it up online and it seems my bank doesn’t handle checks. There are rummours online that some other banks do cash checks, but it seems some of those have changed their policy since and they are no longer accepting checks either. All in all it works as well as being paid with a rai stone or a cowry sea shell, while lacking the aesthetic benefits of those.
  - wiredfool 4y ago
    For me, in Ireland, cashing a US check through my bank teller costs 150ish eur (that's one hundred and fifty, not a buck fifty) and takes 6 weeks. They basically have to hand process it and send it to their US correspondent bank. At one point, I got tax refund and stimulus checks from the Treasury, and it turned out to just be easier to endorse them to my remaining US account and mail them to the branch that has my account. In theory I could use the bank's remote deposit capture service, but: 1) The checks were too big, there's a ~$2500 limit on RDC, and 2) The bank has complained in the past that I'm not supposed to use it when I'm overseas. There's some regulation that they're worried about. I've seen a couple of checks in Ireland that haven't been from the US, mainly tax refunds IIRC, but they're super rare and no ATMs will take them. They'll take Euros for deposits, but not checks. So it's a trip into see the Cash desk at the bank.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Foreign currency can be less straightforward. Admittedly a number of years back, a Canadian company paid me for a photo of mine they found online that they wanted for an article. Ended up having to go to a human bank teller to deposit it.
bbbbb5 4y ago
My Dubai, Hong Kong and Singapore banks have issued me cheque books. Clearly some people use them outside of the US, although I'm not quite sure for what.
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  Oh yes, chequebooks are still issued, but no one uses them. Chequebooks used to be these thick 50-100 page ones which used to cost a lot too. Nowadays you would be lucky to get a 15 page leaflet
maxerickson 4y ago
That's how they are used in the US too, if you look at things a bit askew. Other payment methods work fine and are widespread, so the vast majority of uses of checks are by people who have confused ideas about how they work (they prefer the ceremony of writing a check compared to the effort of understanding), or in particular circumstances where they were used traditionally and maybe satisfy some antiquated legal mechanism (almost a literal ceremonial money transfer).

Overtonwindow 4y ago

I am genuinely surprised people in America are still using checks. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but… A check? If you have checks laying around, you should destroy them. If you need something like a check, get a money order.

drukenemo 4y ago
Most countries in Western Europe and South America (that I know of) have stopped using checks at least 10 years ago.
- debesyla 4y ago
  And Baltic countries (like Lithuania) never used checks at all - now it's only instant and free SEPA bank transfers.
- alkonaut 4y ago
  25 I’d say. I stopped using cash 10-15 years ago. I mean entirely, no exceptions.
sneak 4y ago
I can write a check in my home or office, put it in an envelope with a stamp, and put it in the outgoing post, all without going anywhere or paying anyone. I can complete the whole payment task in 5 minutes. Money orders have a fee and require time and gasoline to go somewhere to get them. In 5 minutes I haven't even arrived at the nearest location to purchase a money order.
- mistrial9 4y ago
  a check gives transaction control to the parties directly participating.. a check can be physically held on private property. Why people cry out that this is "ancient" just says to me that people are conditioned to depend on outside companies for every aspect of financial life, minute by minute.
  - 4y ago

technothrasher 4y ago

Ok, separate from the fraud, this guy wrote a personal check instead of using the organization's funds to pay a state fee? That feels pretty sloppy for somebody running an organization "dedicated to improving financial literacy." While clearly innocent and done just for convenience, taking short cuts with a 501(c)(3) org is a bad idea. To keep the accounting straight, he'd end up having to get them to do up donation paperwork on it, which removes his goal of not bothering people over a small amount. Otherwise, it's co-mingling of funds.

pilotneko 4y ago
He just ate the cost. It’s five dollars.
- hayyyyydos 4y ago
  > To keep the accounting straight
PopAlongKid 4y ago
> I decided it was simpler to pay the fee myself, rather than bothering Ben Holland (Treasurer for the Center) to have the Center pay the fee. But what does Ben Holland say? Yes, it is very sloppy to say the least. I recently completed a two-year term as the treasurer for a non-profit professional association, and I would have been highly peeved had one of the other board members gone ahead and done this without first "bothering" me. It is the treasurer's job to make sure essential payments are made and recorded on the books. Also, while my org does both make and receive payments electronically, we also have highly fraud-resistant business-style checks (watermarks etc) for times when check payments were easiest or required.

a9ex 4y ago

I never used a check my entire life, it‘s just not a thing in Europe (: In the pre-internet-banking times, you would just fill out one of these forms [0] to send money from your account directly to someone else. [0] https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahlschein#/media/Datei%3AZahlschein.jpg https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahlschein#/media/Datei%3AZa...

sneak 4y ago
Checks are basically the same thing, they're just given to the payee to give to their bank (to give to your bank) instead. The high penalties (historically) for writing bad checks meant that if you had a signed check in hand, you had at least a small level of confidence that you had actually been paid the money, much like cash in hand (it could of course be counterfeit, but you can assume to some extent that it is not).
vladvasiliu 4y ago
> I never used a check my entire life, it‘s just not a thing in Europe (: Which parts of Europe? I use them all the time in France. A bunch of taxes companies have to pay can't be paid by credit card. It's either check or bank transfer.
- bigbacaloa 4y ago
  In Spain I've never seen a check except ones sent to me from the US and bank checks to pay mortgages.
  - harperlee 4y ago
    In Spain it’s quite rare although they’re still used for things like mortgages and inheritances.
- silvestrov 4y ago
  In Denmark checks are not supported payment anymore, not even at banks: https://danskebank.dk/privat/find-hjaelp/betalinger-og-overfoersler/slut-med-checks https://danskebank.dk/privat/find-hjaelp/betalinger-og-overf... Everything is debit card, bank transfer or MobilePay. Creditcards are only really used for travel and payment of US companies.

bigbacaloa 4y ago

Unbelievable that anyone still uses handwritten checks. Unbelievable that anyone has done so in the current century. There exist diverse alternatives both more secure and easier to use and they have existed for many, many years.

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sethd 4y ago
For larger purchases there’s often a fee to pay by credit card. If the fee is equal to or lower than my cash back rate, I’ll pay by card, but sometimes checks are the only feasible option. Recent example: Tree trimming company. They accepted check (no fee) or card with 3% fee. The highest cash back card I have for generic purchase is 2%, so I paid by check instead.
- alkonaut 4y ago
  Now I’m more shocked to learn that having work done by a professional doesn’t result in an invoice but instead requires immediate payment? Card fees in Europe I think can’t be shifted to the customer but that obviously means they are just part of the price. But - the price is the same regardless of payment method, so there is no money saved by avoiding cards. That’s why I consider everything to be 0-fee (invoice, card, money transfer).
- bigbacaloa 4y ago
  Literally I've not seen a check in twenty+ years except for bank checks used to pay a mortgage. Where I live one can pay by direct bank transfer or debit card, usually with no fee while checks carry exorbitant fees and one has to make an appointment at the bank to cash one.
jjav 4y ago
> Unbelievable that anyone still uses handwritten checks. Unbelievable that anyone has done so in the current century. There exist diverse alternatives both more secure and easier to use and they have existed for many, many years. Can you tell us what these supposedly more secure alternatives are? At least in the US, I don't believe there is anything better at the end of the day. Credit cards can be more convenient, but not all places accept them and of the ones who do sometimes they charge an inordinate fee. All the private companies (paypal, venmo, etc) are out because it is well known they'll freeze your account without reason and without recourse. So if you need a secure mechanism, stay away from those. That leaves checks as the most universal, overhead-free and secure mechanism, other than plain cash but that's inconvenient for large amounts.

pettycashstash2 4y ago

Check writing is very common and embedded in American culture. Yes there are risks, however there are more risks with scams with VENMo, PayPal, cash app, app du jour. yes more people are moving to these services , but checks are still needed for many formal transactions: ex purchase a home, or fill up my kids lunch account without being charged A CONVeniance fee.

ghaff 4y ago
I'm sure a lot of it is that I'm used to them. But, for the most part, checks either written by myself or by my bank via their web site work pretty well with a few exceptions. For an individual, receiving especially a large check in exchange for something you're selling carries risk that you can't wholly mitigate. (Maybe some of the systems available to merchants are available to individuals who need something like this once in a blue moon--but I've never heard of such.) Another case is chasing down checks for people who have signed up for some activity and/or handling last minute waiting lists etc. I dealt with this sort of thing for many years and electronic transfers are a lot less hassle.
- devilbunny 4y ago
  > receiving especially a large check in exchange for something you're selling carries risk that you can't wholly mitigate. I mean, if you accompany them to their bank, and have them issue a cashier's check, you're definitely getting paid unless the entire bank is insolvent, because you're not counting on the check clearinghouse to handle the whole matter - the bank is staking its own reputation on willingness to pay.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Which adds a ton of friction to the transaction. For that matter you can require them to pay you in cash. My point is that, historically, personal checks were the default for a lot of person to person transactions in the US but they carried some risk--depending on the situation.

MerelyMortal 4y ago

Apparently a simple line after the spelled-out amount isn't enough, as it's clearly visible on the low resolution scan.

nerdponx 4y ago
Indeed. I think the most surprising thing here is that the check was accepted with those horizontal lines left in it.

MerelyMortal 4y ago

I've never had one of my checks washed, but in second or third grade, a classmate tried "washing" one of my worksheets. Thankfully the teacher called me to her desk to why didn't I turn in my worksheet (I had), and thankfully my worksheet was on top of the stack which allowed me to see it and point out that I turned it in, and someone else erased my name (still somewhat visible) and wrote theirs. It seems that many people aren't observant, don't care, and/or don't want the confrontation.

adql 4y ago
The credit/debit card must be signed by owner. In my history of using debit cards for most, and now for near everything not a single time anyone bothered to check. Even back when the magnetic stripe was used. I also was using out of date identity document for good 6 months and datacenter staff also haven't bothered to check that.
- ghaff 4y ago
  I'll add that my signature at this point is a totally undecipherable inconsistent scrawl that is even more so in a thin box on the back of a card. I assume I'm not that unusual, especially given that I actually did learn Palmer script once upon a time. I sort of have to laugh whenever I still sometimes need to sign a credit card receipt.

maratc 4y ago

For all those who tune in to the "checks are so 19th century" tune: please note this is a good story about check fraud, as the OP eventually got his money back. With Paypal/Venmo/app-du-jour, in the event of an account takeover, the result might be different. Check fraud is an old problem — as old as the checks themselves — and it's a problem well understood by the banks, the police, investigators, and judges. On the other hand, good luck explaining the police such obscure technical details as "they installed a proxy on my IP" or "they sim-swapped me to intercept the one-time password". On another note, checks charge 0% commission: to pay someone $5, you need $5.

krisoft 4y ago
> With Paypal/Venmo/app-du-jour, in the event of an account takeover, the result might be different. You are saying it as if checks vs apps are the only two option. > On the other hand, good luck explaining the police such obscure technical details as "they installed a proxy on my IP" or "they sim-swapped me to intercept the one-time password". Why would I explain any such thing? It is not my job to know how the bank got hacked.
- PopAlongKid 4y ago
  >It is not my job to know how the bank got hacked. But it may be in your best interest to show that you are not the hacker.
- maratc 4y ago
  > It is not my job to know how the bank got hacked. And without any explanations, it's not your bank's job to return your money.
  - krisoft 4y ago
    The explanation is that you see a transaction you are not recognising. You point at it and say “i didn’t authorise that one” and let them investigate. They have the logs, you don’t. This is probably the worst day of your life or close to it, while it is just a normal regular occurence for your bank. They have policies to handle it from their side. They will ask a lot of question, perhaps ask you to make a police report. I ask you this, if you have chest pain and shortness of breath, would you: a; jurry-rig an oscilloscope to check your ECG, start reading wikipedia all about cardiology, and then find a nurse to tell them about how concerned you are about your QT interval Or b; go to a hospital and tell them that you have chest pain and shortness of breath?

bayindirh 4y ago

This is why Uniball has SuperInk, and Noodler’s has Bulletproof.

puffoflogic 4y ago
Bulletproof is pretty dangerous stuff though. Granted, I never had any issues with it when I was using it to write rent checks monthly, but I think long term it's likely to require a carpet replacement or two!

MerelyMortal 4y ago

My bank allows me to have multiple checking accounts. I have money direct deposited in one account, and I transfer over just as much money as I need for checks into another account, and transfer over just as much money as I need for autobilling into a third account. I trust the entity that does the direct deposit, otherwise I would set up a fourth account just for that.

owlbite 4y ago

Moving from the UK to the US a few years ago was like going back in time 20 years in finance tech. No-one supported contactless payment, cards didn't implement it, despite it having been standard tech in the UK for years. The UK de-facto deprecated cheques in 2011 when the cheque-guarantee scheme was closed, so it was very shocking to need one to rent an apartment in the US. (The UK would just use a bank transfer). Even with improvements seemingly brought on by covid, the US still seems massively behind the times - for example ACH still takes several days to do a bank transfer that is instant in the UK, and venmo or whatever seems to be overcomplicating it.

javajosh 4y ago
Yes, and moving to the EU was like moving forward 20 years. The IBAN system is fantastic! The seller gives you their IBAN number, and you tell your bank to send money to that number. It happens instantly and for 0% commission. There are no routing number/account numbers. (Granted, I never had to deal with fraud so I'm not sure how that goes. I doubt that credit card style charge backs are possible.) It's also interesting that in some parts of Europe (esp Germany) cash is still the normal way of paying, even for large amounts.
- hnbad 4y ago
  > I doubt that credit card style charge backs are possible. Actually they are, but only for SEPA direct debit (i.e. you giving your IBAN to the seller to authorize a recurring charge). Also I'm not sure if this is automatic or just standard practice but failed SEPA charges will invalidate the mandate, so you'll have to issue a new one if it ever bounces. Some(?) banks also allow you to reverse a bank transfer in online banking but I'm not sure if this just an "undo" before the transfer has actually gone through or an actual reverse charge. You can also set up recurring transfers in most online banking software for free but again they're not usually reversible like SEPA direct debit payments are. As for cash payments in Germany: the pandemic led to a lot of retail adoption of debit card payments but if you don't know in advance whether you'll be able to pay by card, it's good to keep cash on hand. Most larger retail stores (clothing, pharmacies, etc) and pricier restaurants take debit cards, grocerers/bakers and non-chain fast food places often only take cash. You probably can't pay for your Currywurst with your debit card but you can pick up your prescription (if it's not fully covered by health insurance) or pay for a fancy dinner. In the latter case they might even take credit cards, if they're particularly fancy.

lordfrito 4y ago

I personally experienced check fraud about 7 years ago. 4 fake checks, $6,500 stolen. Fake checks looked real to me, as did my signature. Was confusing to me as the signature looked like mine, I did a triple take trying to figure out if I had written them. Upon further inspection the signature on all 4 checks was absolutely identical, my signature looks slightly different every time I sign, but these 4 were identical in every way (overlaid them in an image processing tool to convince myself). Figuring they photocopied the signature from an existing check, I went through my archive of cancelled checks until I found a perfect match for the signature. Turns out the signature was copied from a check that was written to a handyman for some maintenance work. Brought this info to the police and the bank. I don't know if they did anything with it, as they're not allowed to discuss details with me. Anyhow, long story short, took 3 months, but the $6,500 was eventually returned to me. Much better experience than crypto! Lastly, I had to close the checking account for fraud and get a new one. When I asked about ordering new checks, the bank manager admonished me "haven't I learned my lesson" and not to ever use checks. All of your personal information, address, and bank account # are in one place he said. I told him it's terrifying when your bank manager tells you not to use checks on the checking account his bank offers. I write very few checks now. Thankfully most transfers can now be done digitally (and without crypto I might add). Sign of the times I guess.

puffoflogic 4y ago
> as they're not allowed to discuss details with me. That would not be true if they actually investigated. This is code for "we don't care"; there was simply a miscommunication here when you did not recognize the euphemism.
- helsontaveras18 4y ago
  Check fraud is a federal crime. I think an investigation did occur. It's in the banks/police's best interest to withhold details regarding an active investigation, because what if you go tell the suspect the details?
tobyjsullivan 4y ago
The recurring comparison to crypto is ironic here. The central purpose of crypto is that, when used correctly, it makes exactly this type of fraud impossible. These stories show the fundamental problem with checks is that using them correctly exposes you to the fraud risk. I'm not pro-crypto or anything. The bar to use it "correctly" is too high to be practical. I'm only highlighting the irony of this particular comparison.

beej71 4y ago

Property taxes are the only place I still use them. I can pay with a credit card, but they charge a percentage "convenience fee". The county does have a drop box for paying, though.

ghaff 4y ago
What happens a lot of the time is that towns farm out their epayments to a private company for "free" that, reasonably enough, needs to recoup their expenses and make a profit. I just use my bank's bill pay that will cut a check and mail it for free if they can't do an electronic transfer.

crazygringo 4y ago

This is exactly why the USPS started replacing the blue box opening slots with a narrower version in New York City and surrounding areas starting back in 2019 [1], to prevent "mail fishing" -- retrieving envelopes from people paying bills, specifically to wash found checks in order commit fraud. Which, if you used to use the blue boxes for mailing thin packages, is a huge annoyance because you can't anymore. :( Seriously, these days nobody should be writing personal checks using a pen. If you do need a check for a transaction, use a cashier's check (different from a personal check, it's drawn on the bank) for occasional large amounts (like apartment deposit or buying a used car), or most banks allow you to send a paper check via online banking for routine needs -- you fill out the details online and it mails a paper check to the recipient that, AFAIK, can't be washed for check fraud. (All of this is USA specific, to be clear.) [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/nyregion/mailbox-theft-fishing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/nyregion/mailbox-theft-fi...

rippercushions 4y ago
> Seriously, these days nobody should be writing personal checks FTFY. The US is the only country in the world that I know of where writing personal checks is still commonplace. In Europe they're thoroughly obsolete, and in Asia, where they were mostly uncommon in the first place, even the few once check-happy countries like Singapore have pretty much migrated off.
- tnjm 4y ago
  French resident here. Received a bill from this week from a medical lab for some tests; the only payment options are either visit the lab in person (an hour's drive away) or mail a personal check. This is not uncommon here, and even most large supermarket chains still accept checks.
  - nicbou 4y ago
    Really? I’m approaching 10 years in Germany and I have never seen a cheque in Europe. SEPA transfers are the standard, and this is in the land of the faxes.

peter303 4y ago

The only physical check I have written in the past four years was to the US Passport Office. They refuse any electronic payment method. The next most recent paper check was a wedding gift. But modern wedding registries accept digital payments now.

kylehotchkiss 4y ago

One thing I dislike is the inability to disable ACH for a given account. I really want to use an account for safekeeping that can’t have a check or ACH transaction run against it, rather I’d have to use banks internal tool to move funds. Does this exist?

raincom 4y ago
Chase and other banks have something like "ACH & Check block". Usually, such a thing is available for business accounts.

wdb 4y ago

Can still remember when I received a check in the early 2000s from an American company. I just didn't know what to do with it. Luckily, the local bank branch knew what to do. Even 15-20 years ago checks were pretty uncommon in my part of Europe

xbeta 4y ago

What's the Americans obsession with checks? I worked and lived in other countries , including Asia, Europe and Latin America. Most of them moved on to digital payment (especially China) where I found the US and Canada still heavily relied on a piece of paper to process a large amount of funds with no security. In US, I realized even buying groceries they accept checks written at the counter. Why can't the US just move on from checks?

ridgered4 4y ago
I'm in the US and I use checks for some bills because they charge me a fee to pay with other methods (off the top of my head, my property taxes and electric bill have these drawbacks). I tend to use the bank bill pay system for these instead of writing an actual check though.

spicymaki 4y ago

Really good story about check fraud. I refuse to use personal checks. It has your account number and personal information listed on them! If I am forced to use checks I will have my bank issue the check by mail or I will go to the bank and have them issue a bank check. If I am in a pinch I will use a money order from the post office. I once had a business account (one where they stated they did signature matching) and someone performed fraud by withdrawing money using a ripped piece of looseleaf with some sketchy writing on it. I went into the bank to ask them about the withdrawal and they produced an image of the "withdrawal slip" and they were quite frankly embarrassed that they cashed it (no authentication at all). That bank is no longer in business btw.

porbelm 4y ago

Checks existing at all is just mindboggling. Most countries quit that crap thirty years ago.